National Assembly · Morning Sitting

[The Temporary Speaker (Hon. Farah Maalim) left the Chair]

[The Temporary Chairman (Hon. Farah Maalim) in the Chair]

(Senate Bill, No. 9 of 2023) The Temporary Chairman (Hon. Farah Maalim): I call the House to order. We are now in the Committee of the whole House to consider the Kenyan Sign Language Bill (Senate Bill, No. 9 of 2023) with Hon. Millie Odhiambo-Mabona and Hon. Umulkher Harun as the co-sponsors. Clause 7 The Temporary Chairman (Hon. Farah Maalim): Hon. Umulkher, you have an amendment to Clause 7?

I have. The Temporary Chairman : Proceed and move your amendment.

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Bill be amended in clause 7 by deleting and replacing with the following new clause—

Kenyan Sign Language in education. The Cabinet Secretary for the time being responsible for matters relating to so far as is reasonably practical, establish a mechanism for the the parents, siblings and grandparents of a child who other persons who serve as guardians to a child who ensure that Deaf learners and learners who are hard of hearing ensure development of appropriate instruction material…

Yes. The Temporary Chairman : Proceed.

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 10. I will be moving an amendment to introduce a New Part II which seeks to establish the Kenyan Sign Language Council. (Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) Clause 11 The Temporary Chairman : There is an amendment. Hon. Umulkher, move the amendment.

[(Question of the amendment proposed)]

[(Clause 10 deleted)]

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 11. I will be moving an amendment to introduce a New Part which seeks to establish the Kenyan Sign Language Council. (Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) Clause 12 The Temporary Chairman : Mover, you have an amendment. Please go ahead.

[(Question of the amendment proposed)]

[(Clause 11 deleted)]

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

I will be moving an amendment as well. THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 12.

(Question of the amendment proposed) (Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to) Clause 13

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 13. The Temporary Chairman : Hon. Ngusya and the other Member consulting in loud tones next to the Table, take your seats. Clause 15 The Temporary Chairman : There is an amendment. Move the amendment.

[(Question of the amendment proposed)]

[(Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to)]

[(Clause 14 agreed to)]

[(Hon. Charles Nguna and Hon. Vincent Musau consulted loudly)]

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move: THAT, Clause 15 be amended by deleting the expression "Cabinet Secretary shall, in consultation with the most representative registered association of sign language interpreters" and substituting therefor the word "Council.’’ The Temporary Chairman : Hon. Members, before I proceed with the Bill, I wish to recognise the presence of students from Koitaburot…

[(Question of the amendment proposed)]

[(Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to)]

[(Question, that the word to be inserted in place thereof be inserted, put and agreed to)]

[(Clause 15 as amended agreed to)]

[(Clauses 16, 17, 18 and 19 agreed to)]

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

School, Sigowet/Soin Constituency, Kericho County and Athi Saint Michael Academy, Juja Constituency, Kiambu County who are in the Public Gallery. I welcome them to Parliament. This is where the affairs of this country, for the Welfare of Society and Just Government for the People, is determined. I will ask Hon. Majimbo Kalasinga to say a word of encouragement to the students seated in the Public G…

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman, for giving me this opportunity to welcome the students to this honourable House. This is a House where laws governing this country are made; this is a place where Hon. Members sit and discuss issues affecting the country. Some students benefit from the National Government Constituency Development Fund (NG-CDF) bursaries, and this is where we decide how…

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I wish to welcome the students who have come to observe the Proceedings of Parliament. As they have heard, this is a House of records where laws governing this country are made. It is also a place where we oversee what the Executive does. Today, we are here, but tomorrow, they may be down here making the same laws and ensuring the country works. We wish them all…

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

(The heading to the new part was read a First Time) The Temporary Chairman (Hon. Farah Maalim): Hon. Umulkher, move Second Reading.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that the new Part I be now read a Second Time.

[(Question, that the heading to the new part be read a Second Time, proposed)]

[(Question, that the heading to the new part be read a Second Time, put and agreed to)]

[(Question, that the heading to the new part be added to the Bill, put and agreed to)]

New Part II THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Part immediately after Clause 5—

Establishment of the Council. 5A. (1) There is established the Kenyan Sign Language Council. The Council suing and being sued; purchasing or otherwise acquiring, holding, entering into contracts; and doing or performing all other things or acts Notwithstanding subsection (1), the Council may regulate the use and development of sign language put in place measures for the recognition and undertake …

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that the new Part II be now read a Second Time. The Temporary Chairman : Hon. Kitany.

[(Question, that the new part be read a Second Time, proposed)]

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, these particular clauses that create a council is a noble idea on sign language. It will help many of our people who are not able to use voice as we do to communicate with the public. Much of what they do is not regulated yet they require the service. This Bill has not only come at the right time but also it could have come sooner. We thank the sponsors, Hon. Umulkher and …

[(Question, that the new part be read a Second Time, put and agreed to)]

[(Question, that the new part be added to the Bill, put and agreed to)]

THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following heading immediately before Clause 6—

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that the New Part III be now read a Second Time

[(Question, that the heading to the new part be read a Second Time, proposed)]

[(Question, that the heading to the new part be read a Second Time, put and agreed to)]

[(Question, that the heading to the new part be added to the Bill, put and agreed to)]

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Chairman. The Temporary Chairman : What is your point of order, Hon. Anthony Oluoch?

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I request the Member who is proposing amendments that, for purposes of the record and for enriching the lawmaking process, could she highlight the reasons for the amendments, so that the public and those who wish to support can understand? The Temporary Chairman : This is a House of rules. You should have raised the matter earlier.

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I tried to catch your eye but I did not want to interrupt her. I request that she enriches the process with a sentence justifying the amendment. The Temporary Chairman : Fair enough. For us not to be seen to be flouting the rules, in the subsequent amendments, the Mover should highlight and expound the reasons for the amendment. Let us not just consider the technical asp…

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. If you look at the current telecommunication providers that we have in the country like Safaricom, Airtel and Telecom, most of the time they offer discounted prices to the people who use telephone communication. That is the hearing community. However, what happens with the deaf communities is that they use video conferencing, especially on their mobile phones. …

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, the questions that we are asking here reflect the problem we are facing as a country. There are other countries that provide gadgets like that. Because we have not invested in this sector, we are asking how. It is not really up to us as a House to consider how. With technology, it can be done... The Temporary Chairman : It should be enriched at the appropriate time when …

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

What I am saying is that in America, for instance, they have that technology. Why can we not provide it so that we invest in providing for that technology? The Temporary Chairman : To allow somebody who is deafblind to communicate.

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Yes. The idea is to make it easy. I asked one of my friends whose sister faced a lot of challenges when she was here in Kenya but now lives in the USA in a different State from her, how she communicates with her sister, Grace and she said because gadgets are provided in the USA, she can call them. So, why can we not provide that here to enable the deaf to communicate the way other people do? That …

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

[(Hon. Owen Baya spoke off the record)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I support telecommunication service being provided for the deaf, the blind, and the deafblind. We went for public participation on a Bill on environment and the greatest complaint that we had about the blind is that they could not read the Bill because there was no service to enable them read it. There was no braille. So, if there is a way we can have the

telecommunication service to help them read Bills and anything else that goes with them, especially in public participation, it will be very easy for them. As we speak, we are mourning one of the greatest Persons with Disability (PWD), a blind man called Raymond Cheruyiot who was very instrumental in matters concerning the Constitution and the church. So, as this Bill is processed, let us remembe…

Hon. Members, do you wish to weigh on this clause before I put the Question?

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I would like to say something on this clause. We are making law for posterity. It is very important that we choose words very well. The reason why we come to the Committee of the whole House is to comb through words—from word to sentence to clause. On Clause 8B, we need to be careful on what we do with it. I have no issues with Clause 8A because it is about television and …

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I hear Hon. Baya very well. For information, I was telling him that when I was in the civil society, there was no provision by any media house for interpretation like now. And the argument was around cost. At the Cradle, we took on the Nation, they were not very happy with us, not because they are the ones who were discriminating but we just had to pick one medi…

Airtel, always declare profits. They make a lot of money. I want to thank them because they do a lot of CSR programmes. But this is not even an issue of CSR. It is beyond it. This is about enabling human beings to be human like everybody else. With the same capacity they have for CSR, they can still put money into this. So, we can provide a transitional period of one year. I agree with Hon. Baya t…

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I thought you were confusing me with Hon. Feisal. The Temporary Chairman : Yes, Hon. Feisal is behind you and the two of you look very alike. He has rubbed onto you some of his features. Proceed.

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I thank Hon. Millie and Hon. Umul, for this. My contribution will go to the need to leave no one behind. The deaf and blind community is very important in our community and we may not seek to have legislative frameworks that can leave them behind. My Party Whip is not consuming the word ‘shall’ being used in the amendment. My request is that this is a very impor…

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

[(Question, that the new clause be read a Second Time, put and agreed to)]

[(Question, that the new clause be added to the Bill, put and agreed to)]

Registration. 9A. (1) A person who wishes to provide Kenyan Sign Language interpretation services shall apply for registration to the Council in the prescribed manner. The Registrar Where the Council has determined that a person has complied The Council has proficiency in English or Kiswahili languages as possesses such professional qualifications from an institution has obtained practical experi…

Hon. Temporary Chair, I beg to move that the New Part be now read a second time. The purpose of the New Part is to create the Kenyan Sign Language Council, which will provide regulations for interpreters and eradicate quacks in the market. Thank you. I am looking for somebody who has not had a bite. I will give the Floor to Hon. Rindikiri but before you take the Floor, I want to recognise, in t…

[(Question, that the new part be read a Second Time, proposed)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I thank you very much for welcoming the students, and I want to join you. I take a specific welcome note to the students from Tiaty Constituency. I am from Turkana County and they are from Baringo County. You are aware of what has been happening between the Pokot and the Turkana ethnic communities in terms of banditry and cattle rustling. Therefore, mine is to wish them we…

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman, for those kind words. I would also like to welcome the students who have come

Hon. Wamboka, Member for Kabuchai. Hon. Rindikiri, proceed.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I have just consulted the Legal Counsel and the Mover. As we do the recommittal on the matter of what the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party has brought up, I am of the strong opinion that part of the responsibility of the Council is to carry out research. This will help us know the numbers we are dealing with regarding people who require sign language interpre…

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, as I support this proposed amendment, especially the part where the regulations will be required, I encourage the co-sponsors to move with speed so that we can iron out some of the issues that the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party raised and some of the emerging technological issues. I sit on the Committee on Delegated Legislation and I would be happy that these regulati…

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

I would like to first speak on the New Part IV, which has all the clauses in 9. Hon. Temporary Chairman, these clauses talk about the registration of sign language interpreters. They give us qualifications, application, registration, certificate of registration, effect of registration, practising certificate and all that. However, probably Hon. Oluoch and Hon. Millie can guide us in good drafting.…

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I would like to ask the Member whether he is proposing recommittal. I expected you to say that you are moving an amendment to drop this provision and then you recommit it, so that the text can be revised to place some matters in a Schedule and others in regulations. That is why I spoke about the regulations during my contribution. Maybe you can help the Member by proposing…

[(Hon. Owen Baya spoke off the record)]

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

I am happy to be guided on this matter but, I would like us to move a further amendment. If the drafters are present, they can assist me with the text. I propose that we recommit the provision and provide for the registration of interpreters as a function of the Council. It then becomes one of the Council's functions. Thereafter, we can provide a Schedule setting out the requirements, qualificatio…

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I would like to add my voice to what Hon. Owen Baya has proposed. It is important to enumerate this function the way he has suggested. I rise to support what he has said. I believe it will reorganise the entire clause. I support. The Temporary Chairman : Yes, Hon. Rindikiri.

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, we have already passed that clause. One great function that can be incorporated into the Council is research. As I stand here, my immediate elder brother, who retired recently, is a sign language expert. He retired as Deputy Headteacher of Kaaga School for the Deaf. Through a text message, he informed me that we have a challenge in this country because we do not know the p…

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I would like to request Deputy Leader of the Majority Party to listen to this. I have heard what he said, but he is speaking to legislative elegance but not substance. We are speaking to legislative drafting style, philosophy and preference. There was a big debate on the Constitution of Kenya. There are those who are minimalists and prefer that only principles a…

In my view, the Bill is neither defective nor flawed. If you look at statutes establishing bodies such as the National Land Commission, you will find similar drafting approaches. In fact, I thank Hon. Rachael Nyamai for reminding me that. The drafting is very similar. It does not harm the Bill. It is not defective. The traditional legislative style, that many of us are used to, is the minimalist a…

Hon. Temporary Chairman, can I move further amendments? The Temporary Chairman : Would you like to move them now or you want to pass the Clause and then you come back and move them?

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Chairman. That is very simple. When you move a further amendment, you just say that the title of Part IV be further amended to read "Registration and Regulation of Sign Language Interpreters". Hon. Umulkher can provide that amendment in writing and we can sign it. As a co-sponsor, I can move that the title of Part IV of the Bill be further amended to read "Registration and Regulation of Sign Langu…

Hon. Millie Mabona is my senior in this House. When she speaks, I listen. I would like to acknowledge her efficacy in law. Let us adopt that proposal now. I will also take the advice given by Hon. Oluoch. I still have my misgivings, but for purposes of the law, let us proceed. I would also like us to recommit New Clause 8B. I do not know whether that is procedurally permissible at this level. The …

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

We will recommit New Clause 8B later. The Temporary Chairman : Regarding New Clause 8B, I understand the transition issue that you mentioned. However, there is generally no progressive or incremental manner in which law comes into force. That is usually an administrative matter. For example, we have the two-thirds gender principle in our Constitution. It says "shall" which

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

means that we must have it. It is an impossible thing and it takes time for these things to be actualised. You see what I mean. Yes Hon. Oluoch.

I am persuaded by what Hon. Millie has said for one other reason and I will give an example. I have moved an amendment for the Basic Education Act for alternative provisions of basic education schools in informal settlements and this category has perpetually been discriminated because they were operating under some regulations which under legal notice were never put into place. The effect of that …

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. First of all, I thank the Leader of the Majority Party because he has agreed that we proceed in the direction Hon. Millie Odhiambo-Mabona has suggested. It is better to over-legislate than to under-legislate, especially on this matter that concerns the deaf and the blind. I think we would rather do the best that we can so that they are able to benefit …

[(Question that the new part be read a Second Time, put and agreed to)]

[(Question, that the new part be added to the Bill, put and agreed to)]

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

[(The new part was read a First Time)]

[(Question, that the new part be Read a Second Time, proposed)]

[(Question that the new part be read a Second Time, put and agreed to)]

(Question, that the new part be added to the Bill, put and agreed to) New Clauses 16A, 16B, 16C, 16D and 16E THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Parts immediately after Clause 16—

Funds of the Council. 16A. (1) The funds of the Council shall comprise of –– such monies as may accrue to or vest in the Council in the course of the exercise of its powers or the performance of its functions under this Act; monies as may be payable to the Council pursuant to this Act or any other written law; gifts, grants, donations or endowments as may be given to the Council; and all moneys f…

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that new clauses 16A, 16B, 16C, 16D and 16E be now read a second time. This is to justify the sources of funds for the Council. New Part VI The Temporary Chairman : Mover. Give the Member the microphone. THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following heading immediately before Clause 17—

[(The new clauses were read a First Time)]

[(Question, that the new parts be Read a Second Time, proposed)]

[(Question, that the new parts be read a Second Time, put and agreed to)]

[(Question, that the new parts be added to the Bill, put and agreed to)]

[(Hon. Farah Maalim)]

(Question, that the new heading be Read a Second Time, proposed)

(Question, that the new heading be read a Second Time, put and agreed to) (Question, that the new heading be added to the Bill, put and agreed to) New Schedule THAT, the Bill be amended by inserting the following new Schedule immediately after clause 19—

[The Temporary Speaker (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) in the Chair]

of the big faiths in Kenya—Christianity and Islam. Islamic scholars in Egypt did a study and said a person who does not have control over themselves is not doing an illegality or kufr. It is a sin but not kufr. Prophet Muhammad, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, did not pray Salat al-Janazah for people who committed suicide. However, he did not stop others from praying it for people who had passed awa…

Mhe. Mishi Mboko.

Ahsante Mhe. Spika wa Muda. Naomba kumpongeza Mhe. Oluoch kwa kuzungumzia mabadiliko ya Mswada huu ambao kwa Kiingereza unaitwa Penal Code. Mswada huu kwanza unahakikisha kwamba maamuzi yatakuwa sawa.

[(Hon. Owen Baya spoke off the record)]

What is your point of order? Do you want to speak on the issue? I thought you were on a point of order. Nilidhani alikuwa anataka kusema utueleze Penal Code ni nini kwa Kiswahili lakini pengine hata yeye mwenyewe hajui.

Endelea, Mhe. Mishi Mboko

Ahsante, Mhe. Spika wa Muda. Kwa hakika mabadiliko haya ni sawa hususan baada ya Mahakama Kuu kuamua kwamba Kifungu 226 hakiko sawasawa na Katiba yetu ya Kenya. Izingatiwe kwamba vipengee 27 na 28 vya Katiba vinazungumzia usawa na kwamba watu wasidhulumiwe. Pia vimezungumzia haki ya binadamu na haki ya maisha. Watu ambao wanajaribu kujitoa uhai kwanza huwa akili zao zimetoka kuwa akili timamu had…

Nidhamu, Mhe. Mishi Mboko. Umebakisha dakika tano. Hoja hii ikiletwa Bungeni tena, utapewa dakika zako tano.