Senate · Afternoon Sitting

Clerk, do we have quorum? Serjeant-at-Arms, kindly ring the Quorum Bell for 10 minutes. We now have quorum. Clerk, you may proceed to call the first Order.

[(The Clerk-at-the-Table consulted with the Speaker)]

[(The Quorum Bell was rung)]

Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate today, Tuesday, 11th November, 2025- The 21st biannual report on the status of alcohol and drug abuse control in Kenya. I beg to lay.

[(Sen. Cheruiyot laid the document on the Table)]

Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the Senate today, Tuesday, 11th November, 2025-

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate, today, 11th November 2025-

Next Order.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to give notice of the following Motion- THAT, the Senate adopts the Report of the Standing Committee on Health on the County Oversight Networking Engagements in Laikipia and Meru Counties laid on the Table of the Senate on Tuesday, 11th November, 2025.

Proceed, Chairperson, Standing Committee on Health.

Next Order.

that there is no help that SHA is giving to the common mwananchi. I also have a grandmother, whom I usually try to pay SHA for, just for outpatient only. There are no services for out-patient under SHA yet in NHIF, there were outpatient services. However, in SHA there is no outpatient. I do not know what kind of healthcare we have in SHA if we do not have outpatient; leave alone other services. F…

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to support this statement by Sen. Cherarkey. It is true that the infrastructure in most of the counties is wanting and even the machines that are used like MRI, CT scan, ultrasound and X-rays are in bad shape. You go to hospitals and you find that there is no machine which is working. Our citizens are suffering because they pay for SHA, s…

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. I have read the statement by Sen. Cherarkey. Indeed, there are some concerns that need to be addressed. Allow me to just speak on the matter of SHA. First, I would like to inform my colleagues that it is good to be candid and honest. We have made visits to several counties. Yesterday, we were in Kiambu County with my Members and it is true that SHA is working; o…

underage and, therefore, did not have identification (ID) cards. For that matter, they had not been assisted to get special numbers from SHA. If SHA has gone to the extent of making sure that even for a mother without an ID, a special number can be allocated to them to enable them get services. That means those responsible are going out of their way to make sure it is accessible. We talked to the…

You have one more minute. Order, Senator for Nandi.

[(Sen. Cherarkey spoke off record)]

Mr. Speaker, Sir, when funds go to those facilities, it is our responsibility, as Senators of those counties, to make sure that they are being utilised---

underage and, therefore, did not have identification (ID) cards. For that matter, they had not been assisted to get special numbers from SHA. If SHA has gone to the extent of making sure that even for a mother without an ID, a special number can be allocated to them to enable them get services. That means those responsible are going out of their way to make sure it is accessible. We talked to the…

You have one more minute. Order, Senator for Nandi.

[(Sen. Cherarkey spoke off record)]

Mr. Speaker, Sir, when funds go to those facilities, it is our responsibility, as Senators of those counties, to make sure that they are being utilised---

On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. Mandago, would you wish to be informed by the Senator for Machakos?

Every elected Senator in this Senate should go back to their county and ask their governor why they have been given money, but they do not want to convert CHPs to permanent and pensionable terms. Why are they recruiting additional workers in the counties yet they do not want to absorb CHPs, but they still go around blaming the national Government? Funds have been provided. Governors should simply…

Senator for Machakos, the Chair will not allow that. Proceed, Sen. Mandago.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, they must convert those workers to permanent and pensionable terms because they have the money. They should stop posturing around because these are Kenyans who helped this country at the most critical time. Probably some of us could not be alive. Finally, Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the issue of reimbursement of SHA, we agree that there are a few delays here and there. However, we must…

Every elected Senator in this Senate should go back to their county and ask their governor why they have been given money, but they do not want to convert CHPs to permanent and pensionable terms. Why are they recruiting additional workers in the counties yet they do not want to absorb CHPs, but they still go around blaming the national Government? Funds have been provided. Governors should simply…

Thank you so much, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to greet and welcome the delegation from Busy Bee School to the Senate. I have an affinity towards the school because the owner of the school, Madam Christine, is my aunt and she does a fantastic job. In fact, the teachers may remember that I used to be

Hon. Senators, I would like to acknowledge the presence in the Public Gallery this afternoon, of visiting teachers and learners from Busy Bee Junior Secondary School in Mombasa County. The delegation consists of three teachers and 28 learners. In our usual tradition of receiving and welcoming guests to Parliament, I extend a warm welcome to the delegation, and on behalf of the Senate and my own b…

[(Applause)]

Thank you so much, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to greet and welcome the delegation from Busy Bee School to the Senate. I have an affinity towards the school because the owner of the school, Madam Christine, is my aunt and she does a fantastic job. In fact, the teachers may remember that I used to be

a music teacher at Busy Bee School when I was a little bit younger. That was after I was out of the university. I would like to welcome the teachers and learners. This is the Senate. My name is Sen. Crystal Asige, a Nominated Senator from Mombasa County. On behalf of myself, the County Senator, Mohammed Faki and all other Members of the Senate, I wish you a fruitful visit. I will be very happy t…

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the effect of this provision is that papers or reports received when the Senate is on recess cannot be transmitted to the relevant committees to be processed in time as is expected by the constitutional provision. This matter was discussed in the Liaison Committee, which submitted a proposal for the amendment of the Standing Orders to have a provision that would facilitate the ef…

Sen. Eddy, may the Senator for Nandi County be heard in total silence?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the effect of this provision is that papers or reports received when the Senate is on recess cannot be transmitted to the relevant committees to be processed in time as is expected by the constitutional provision. This matter was discussed in the Liaison Committee, which submitted a proposal for the amendment of the Standing Orders to have a provision that would facilitate the ef…

However, we found it unfair because Article 229 says that Parliament should consider. So what is the path of consideration? We must sit and listen to the management response.

You are out of order for breaching Standing Order No.117. You are not supposed to come between the Chair and the Senator speaking. I will give you a caution for the day; I will not ask you to leave. You may go to--- Mr. Speaker, Sir, my apologies, but can you apologise for writing the wrong? Whatever I am saying is simple; we must consider these reports by the 30th. The upshot of what Sen. Mumma …

[(The Senate Majority Leader (Sen. Cheruiyot) spoke off record)]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. You cannot threaten a dry Kalenjin man. This is a straightforward matter in these rules and procedures, and those of us who sit in CPAC and CPIC are grateful to the Committee. You will remember the Civil Case 232 of 2017 on Alcoholic Beverages Association of Kenya ruling under Article 229 of the Constitution of Kenya on consideration of reports by the OAG and the Publ…

Senator for Nandi, relevance. Do you know the contents of the Motion you are seconding?

I know; I am just localising the matter, so that Members can understand. You have to appreciate when the argument was heated, there was a lot of misleading information in the House. I am just finishing by saying, Kenyans should understand what we are discussing. We are saying committees should get ample time to make appropriate recommendations. Mr. Speaker, Sir, under your guidance and Solomonic …

[(Sen. Cheruiyot and Sen. Madzayo stood up in their places)]

Planning, Hon. Mbadi, and asked him to pay councillors, he asked us a simple question; where is the legal bargain? Therefore, the recommendations that we made as CPAC was that there is no Kshs5 million to be remitted to CoG, SOCATT, CAF and AMCA without the legal framework. We have made a generic recommendation that is illegal. On many occasions, we have made referrals to EACC. Kenyans should un…

Senator for Nandi, relevance. Do you know the contents of the Motion you are seconding?

I know; I am just localising the matter, so that Members can understand. You have to appreciate when the argument was heated, there was a lot of misleading information in the House. I am just finishing by saying, Kenyans should understand what we are discussing. We are saying committees should get ample time to make appropriate recommendations. Mr. Speaker, Sir, under your guidance and Solomonic …

[(Sen. Cheruiyot and Sen. Madzayo stood up in their places)]

Clerk, do we have the requisite quorum? Hon. Senators, I will proceed to put the question.

[(Question put and agreed to)]

[[The Speaker (Hon. Kingi) left the Chair] [The Temporary Speaker (Sen. Abdul Haji) in the Chair]]

Clerk, do we have the requisite quorum? Hon. Senators, I will proceed to put the question.

[(Question put and agreed to)]

[[The Speaker (Hon. Kingi) left the Chair] [The Temporary Speaker (Sen. Abdul Haji) in the Chair]]

Hon. Senators, I am going to rearrange the Order Paper. We are going to defer Order Nos.10, 11, 12 and 13, which were supposed to be division. We do not have the numbers. We are going to further defer Order Nos.14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 - Committee of the Whole - and go to Order No.20.

The Senate Majority Leader, proceed.

The other day we saw the Congress shutting down the Government for 40 days because they did not agree on how the money was going to be used. Money is controlled by the House. I think the Senators voted today. Some crossed over and the threshold of 60 was met. Therefore, there might be opening of the House in the US. Be that as it may, they still have the debt ceiling issue. Since it was introduce…

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I second the Motion for the proposed amendments. It is clear that timelines are important. They are important to the extent that budget policy statements must be debated within a sufficient time and the proposal to amend the sections in question; section 25 and other sections, is an important section. These amendments will improve the substance

of business that this House will undertake and in the light of the proposed timelines and timeframes as per the proposals. I second.

Madam Temporary Speaker, the Public Finance Management Act is one of the key pieces of legislation in this country. It operationalises Chapter 12 of the Constitution on public finance. It has many good things. It has many bad things. I think the Budget Policy Statement (BPS) , which is made annually, is the broad guideline for the annual budgets. It is a very important process. I agree with the M…

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I thank Sen. Omtatah and Sen. (Prof.) Ojienda for their thoughts on this very interesting topic. This is about the future of our country. When the public debt debate came to Parliament in 2018 or 2019, I moved on the Floor of this House to oppose it vehemently. I knew I was doing so for the sake of the future generations of this country who will bear a great bu…

space that we continue to work in today, the threat of default still exists. We must always bear that in mind every time we carry out our responsibilities. Madam Temporary Speaker, it is time we have a prudent or an adult conversation in this country about how we manage our resources. Sen. Okiya Omtatah, Kshs2.4 trillion is not a small amount. Forget the debt that you are talking about that you a…

All these projects that you see being lined up in the budget, some of them beyond the proposal of the National Treasury, are because our colleagues in the National Assembly have figured how to rally their colleagues and put in a project here and another one there, without the final consideration that we do not have the resources to live large, like they are encouraging us to do. Debt increase wil…

Order, Sen. Oketch Gicheru. We cannot hear the speaker properly.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I was giving the road from Kisumu to Busia as an example. That road is not in good state yet we see billions of shillings being appropriated each year to sections of the country which, to the best of my knowledge, are not a priority as much as the people from that section of the country that I have mentioned. It is not that they do not deserve. It is just that the road is …

Anything else that we are discussing here which is different from that, to the best of my knowledge, is a waste of precious time. I do not want to take long because we are out of time. We need to have a better conversation on this topic. Sen. Okiya Omtatah, we need to think deeply and do something in the House beyond what you are saying because not many people follow these kinds of conversations …

All these projects that you see being lined up in the budget, some of them beyond the proposal of the National Treasury, are because our colleagues in the National Assembly have figured how to rally their colleagues and put in a project here and another one there, without the final consideration that we do not have the resources to live large, like they are encouraging us to do. Debt increase wil…

Order, Sen. Oketch Gicheru. We cannot hear the speaker properly.

Madam Temporary Speaker, I was giving the road from Kisumu to Busia as an example. That road is not in good state yet we see billions of shillings being appropriated each year to sections of the country which, to the best of my knowledge, are not a priority as much as the people from that section of the country that I have mentioned. It is not that they do not deserve. It is just that the road is …

The Bill is also deferred. Next Order.

It is so deferred. Next Order.

[(Putting of the question on the Bill deferred)]

Hon. Senators, it is now 6.30 p.m., time to adjourn the Senate. The Senate, therefore, stands adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, 12th November, 2025 at 9.30 a.m. The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m.

The Bill is also deferred. Next Order.