National Assembly · Afternoon Sitting

Is Hon. Sunkuyia now in the House? He has a Petition. It is hereby deferred. Next Order.

[(Petition deferred)]

On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.

What is your point of order, Hon. Gisairo.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise as the Member for Kitutu Masaba Constituency on a concern. I have been holding brief for the Member for Kitutu Chache South Constituency. I see the Member in the House. I seek clarification on whether he has finished his sentence so that I can hand over the files.

Hon. Kibagendi, how did you find yourself in the House? You are a stranger. You must leave until after 14 days. Are they over?

[(Hon. Anthony Kibagendi spoke off the record)]

Why has Hon. Gisairo raised a frivolous point of order, to say the least?

[(Hon. Clive Gisairo spoke off the record)]

You are out of order. If 14 days are over, then he is legitimately in the House.

[(Hon. Speaker consulted with the Clerk-at-the-Table)]

I am told 14 days ended yesterday. Hon. Ole Sunkuyia, you have a Petition. If you are ready, present it, but before you do, apologise for coming late.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I take this opportunity to first apologise for being late. I have come from Olepolos in my constituency.

That is not a reason, but go ahead.

I am sorry, Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Joseph Gitari, Member for Kirinyaga Central.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I wish to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations regarding the alleged unlawful detention of Mr Charles Muthii Mago in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Mr Charles Muthii Mago, who hails from Kirinyaga County, has been working in the King…

It is reported that one of the suspects who was arrested alongside him was arraigned in court, charged and subsequently sentenced. Alarmingly, Mr Mago, who pleaded not guilty to the charges, remains in detention with no information provided to his family regarding the status of his case. The prolonged detention of Mr Mago has caused immense distress to his family and raises concerns regarding the …

Thank you. Is the Chairperson, Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations in? Is there any Member of the Committee present? Yes, Hon. Wangari, are you a Member of the Committee?

Yes, Hon. Speaker, I am a Member of the Committee. We will give a response in two weeks.

Thank you. Hon. Titus Lotee, Member for Kacheliba.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I rise to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Education regarding delay in promotion of teachers in Kacheliba Constituency. In 2017, the Teachers Service Commission (TSC) adopted the Career Progression Guidelines to provide a structured framework for the promotion of teache…

Chairman, Departmental Committee on Education or any Member from that Committee? Hon. Owen, tell them to bring a response in two weeks. Hon. Ahmed Maalim, Member for Banissa?

Hon. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I rise to request for a statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Transport and Infrastructure regarding the deteriorating state of road infrastructure in Banissa Constituency. Road infrastructure within Banissa Constituency is in a dilapidated condition, which has occasioned loss of life, high transport…

Hon. GK, when can you bring the response? Two weeks?

In two weeks, Hon. Speaker.

Thank you.

Hon. Owen Baya.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Together with Hon. Martin, we are seeking your indulgence to eulogise the father of Hon. (Dr) Nyikal, who passed on two days ago.

Hon. Martin Owino had seen me about it but throughout the Proceedings he has shown no indication of wanting to say anything about it.

Hon. Speaker, it is just that Hon. Martin Owino is an elder in the Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) Church, and is not overtaken sometimes by the enemy, the devil, like me. I am also the wife of an elder, but once in a while the devil steals me and I speak strange things. He is humbler than I am, so I am tetearing him. We just wanted to say a little on…

Go ahead.

Perhaps, with your kind permission, if he can start and then I follow.

Hon. Martin.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I appreciate the time. I rise to inform the House that we have lost the father to our brother, Dr Wambura Nyikal. Mzee Eliud Nyikal Okaka passed on last Saturday, shortly after we had visited him. He passed on a few hours after the visit. The life and legacy of Mzee Eliud Nyikal are laced with integrity and values of discipline and hard work. He walked the principles of C…

Hon. Millie.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I take this opportunity on my behalf and that of the people of Suba North, to send condolences to the family of Nyikal, on the loss of their father. It was only last week when I was talking to Dr Nyikal about their father. When he told me that their father was alive, I told him that they were really blessed to have one. Some of us lost our fathers when we were young. But i…

raise. I agree that Dr Nyikal is a person of integrity. He serves this House with diligence. We wish to stand with him as he mourns his father. May his father’s soul rest in eternal peace. Thank you.

Hon. Makali Mulu.

Thank you so much, Hon. Speaker. I join colleagues in saying pole to our colleague, Dr Nyikal, for the loss of his father. I really do not know Mzee Nyikal, but I have interacted with his son since 2013 when we joined this House. There is this saying that a good tree will always give good fruits. If you see good fruits from a tree, you know the tree is good. I am therefore imagining that Mzee must…

Hon. Patrick, Member for Chuka/Igambang’ombe.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise as the Vice-Chairman of the Committee on Health to eulogise my Chairman, Dr Nyikal’s father. I have had the advantage of working with Dr Nyikal since the last Parliament. I have had the opportunity of interacting with the old man, his father.

Thank you. We send our collective condolences to Dr Nyikal. I am told the burial is 2nd May 2026. We will therefore play our part. Next Order.

Leader of the Majority Party.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Allow me to first thank, in a very special way, the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Trade, Industry and Cooperatives, Hon. Shinali; the Vice-Chair, Hon. Marianne; and all the other

13 Members of that Committee for the immense work that they put in in consideration of this Bill. I also thank all the Members. This is because when we began debate on this Bill last week, not a single Member opposed. Even those who had certain reservations expressed them without opposing the Bill. Therefore, it is a Bill that had support across board. Many of our Members appreciate the need to am…

Members on their feet, take your seats.

[(Question put and agreed to)]

[(The Bill was read a Second Time and committed to Committee of the whole House)]

Hon. Members, I wish to guide you at Orders No. 9 and No. 10. I have looked at the Committee Reports. At Order No. 9, the Committee appears to agree with all the amendments from the Senate. At Order No. 10, the Committee appears to reject each and every amendment from the Senate. At Order No. 11, the same two orders are going to the Committee of the whole House. Unless there is somebody with a pre…

Hon. Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, the Senate Amendments to the Technopolis Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 6 of 2024) be now considered.

Hon. Speaker, as you have ably guided Hon. Members, on Page 578 of today’s Order Paper, there are quite a number of amendments, all of which the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation agrees with. These were passed in the Senate. The Committee has since considered and agreed with all the amendments. Therefore, I beg to move and urge the House to support the Committees…

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I thank you, Hon. Leader of the Majority Party. Our Committee considered the amendments that were brought by the Senate. This is the reason why the Bills that deal with county matters are taken to the Senate. This is because all the proposals that came from the Senate on this Bill, were about devolved functions. When our Committee looked at those recommendations, we agree…

[(Hon. (Dr) Ojiambo Oundo and other Hon. Members stood in their place)]

Thank you. Hon. Members on their feet, take your seats. Prof. Oundo, take your seat.

[(Question proposed)]

Put the question.

[(Question put and agreed to)]

Next Order.

Hon. Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, the Senate amendments to the Cooperatives Bill (National Assembly Bill, No. 7 of 2024) be now considered. Again, as you indicated in the Speaker’s Brief, on the Cooperatives Bill, the Committee is agreeing with about 40 amendments done in the Senate and rejecting over 100 amendments. Therefore, the logical thing is to reject this so that we …

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Thank you, Hon. Leader of the Majority Party. Hon. Speaker, as you have directed and the Hon. Leader of the

Majority Party has also alluded to it, the Committee went through clause by clause. Considering the Constitutionality of the Bill and what adds content to it, we agreed with some of the amendments. However, we disagreed with the rest of the amendments, some which involve creating offices at the county level while deflecting matters to the national level. This would cause confusion in the implement…

Order, Hon. Members. Hon. Members on their feet, take your seats. Hon. KJ, take your seat.

[(Question proposed)]

Put the question.

[(Question put and negatived)]

Next Order.

Hon. Members, at the Committee of the whole House stage, you will only consider the Technopolis Bill. Be upstanding.

[(Order for Committee read)]

[[The Speaker (Hon. Moses Wetang’ula) left the Chair]]

Hon. Chairperson, proceed to report to the House.

I get it, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered Senate amendments to the Technopolis Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 6 of 2024) and approved the same without amendment.

Thank you. Mover.

I thank the very Hon. Members for taking their time.

Hon. KJ, stick to procedure as indicated. You want to move agreement to the report.

Yes. I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said report. I also request the honourable county Member of Parliament of Kirinyaga to second the Motion for agreement with the report of the Committee of the whole House.

Proceed.

I move. Thank you.

Say you beg to second.

I beg to second. Thank you.

Thank you.

[(Question proposed)]

Yes. Is there someone who wants to say something as long as they do not move? May I put the question?

[(Question put and agreed to)]

[(Mediated version of the Bill passed)]

The Chairperson, Public Debt and Privatisation Committee. Hon. Mrembo.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Public Debt and Privatisation

Hon. Mukami, Member for Nyeri County.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I rise to second the Motion on the Adoption of the Report of the Public Debt and Privatisation

alignment between borrowing decisions and the medium-term fiscal framework. It is also encouraging that the Report not only identifies the pressure emerging in the fiscal framework, but also proposes constructive measures to support reform. I particularly support the Committee’s recommendations aimed at strengthening the policy framework for liability management operations, enhancing transparency…

Members who want to contribute, please press the intervention button. Let us have Hon. Makali Mulu.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I will start by appreciating the work of my former Committee, where I served as the Vice-Chairperson. I have listened to the very good Committee’s recommendations. However, the House should treat public debt more seriously. The Report calls on the House to pass a resolution on the same, but we have already passed the Supplementary Budget. What value will this Report…

no longer have a regular salary and rely on their pension. The House should implement the proposed three-month pension payment period. Otherwise, we will pay out pensions to people who never worked for the Government. The wazees would have died and their children will start fighting for their pension. I urge the House to take this matter seriously.

Let me allow Hon. Makali to finish.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. We need to get to the bottom of the issue of pensions and find out why the National Treasury cannot pay out pensions three months after an employee retires. Most people go for terminal leave prior to retirement. The pensions department should start preparing documentation during that time, so that by the time an employee exits from office, the pension payment proces…

Member for Kisumu East.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I note the Report. The Committee has done well and we need to look at their recommendations. The Public Debt Office, in the last three terms of my four terms, was never really a Public Debt Office within the system. It was somewhere in the 2nd or 3rd floor at the National Treasury. It never had any strength, never had any autonomy and if there was an economist who w…

domestic and external debt we can take. Taking domestic debt is like cutting our nose to spite our face. If Kenyans wants to take a loan to farm or for industry, they may not be able to because the Government borrows all the money and the banks enjoy that very much. I was a banker and it was much easier for the bank to lend Government at 15 per cent than to lend on hire purchase or asset financing…

Thank you. Member for Butula, Hon. Joseph Oyula.

Thank you Hon. Deputy Speaker for giving me this opportunity to also contribute to this debt issue. I support the adoption of this Report because I find that it has highlighted areas the Government needs to look into. Domestic debt is the major cause of a huge budget. We budget heavily on debt because of persistent borrowing domestically. This denies the public from borrowing as most of the cash …

Hon. Patrick Ntwiga, Member for Chuka/Igambang’ombe.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I will be very brief. At the outset, I support the Report and commend the Committee. Most of the time, we pinpoint problems, but we do not suggest solutions. This Committee has pinpointed problems and given possible solutions.

This Committee needs to be well-facilitated to go out and enlighten Kenyans on borrowing. For example, if the President engages with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) or World Bank and gets a loan, Kenyans term it as external borrowing. Politicians hype it claiming the country has borrowed. However, when we borrow internally, it is silent and nobody realises it. At times, political pressure ma…

Member for Funyula, Dr Oundo.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. Let me also join my colleagues in supporting the Report by the Public Debt and Privatisation

neither urgent nor priority. As a country and as leaders, we must be clear on what is possible and what is not. There is too much wastage in this country, especially in recurrent expenditure. In the Supplementary Budget we passed, the Office of the President and the Office of the Deputy President spent almost Kshs11 billion under Article 223 of the Constitution, which we regularised. In a country …

Ideally, this Report should have come before we passed the Supplementary Budget, so that we could cut our cloth according to our size. Coming afterwards makes it seem like a Report for the sake of it, with little impact. As I conclude, all the Reports of this Committee normally have recommendations, but some of them are repeated every time. Does the National Treasury ever read and implement them?…

Thank you, Hon. Members. It appears that there is no further interest according to my list. Let us have the Mover reply before we put the question. Where is the Mover?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I wish to thank the Hon. Members for taking their time to contribute to the Report of the Public Debt and Privatisation

Thank you, Hon. Members. The question shall be put at an appropriate time. Next Order.

[(Putting the question deferred)]

Hon. Members, I am informed that this is a continuation of debate. Do we have a record of the last speaker and the remaining time? The Member who was on the Floor had a balance of approximately three minutes but is absent. Members interested in contributing to this debate, kindly press the intervention button. Yes, proceed, Hon. Owen.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, if you allow me, I propose that we defer this matter for now so that the debate may continue at a later time. I propose that we proceed to the next Order. I am unable to clearly read and understand what is written here despite my background.

That is very serious.

I have tried to find the meaning of the word ushoroba, but I have not been able to find it. Therefore, Hon. Deputy Speaker, I seek your indulgence.

The Motion is deferred since the Mover is not here. Let us move to the next Order.