National Assembly · Afternoon Sitting

Hon. Members, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 41, I wish to report to the House that I have received a Message from the Senate regarding the approval of the mediated version of the Sugar Bill, (National Assembly Bill No. 34 of 2022) . The Message conveys that on 24th October 2024, the Senate considered the Report of the Mediation Committee on the Sugar Bill, (National Assembly Bill N…

[(Several Hon. Members walked into the Chamber)]

Hon. Members, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 41, I wish to report to the House that I have received a notification from the Senate regarding the nomination of Senators to the Mediation Committee on the Division of Revenue (Amendment) Bill, (National Assembly Bill No. 38 of 2024) . You will recall that on Wednesday, 6th October 2024, this House negatived a Motion on consideration of …

Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House:

Hon. Member for Emgwen, Hon. Josses Lelmengit, do you have a Paper to lay on the Table?

Yes. Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table:

Before we go to the next Order, allow me to recognise the presence of the following schools in the Public Gallery: Queen of Peace Girls, Turkana Central Constituency, Turkana County; Legacy School Kitale, Kiminini Constituency, Trans-Nzoia County; Tebeswet Preparatory School, Kapseret Constituency, Uasin Gishu County and Precious Hope School, Kitutu Chache South Constituency, Kisii County.

[(Applause)]

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I welcome the school from my constituency and the others that have visited the National Assembly. I thank them for coming, particularly the Queen of Peace School from my constituency. I appreciate them for travelling more than 800 kilometres to be here. This is likely the only primary school in that area to have visited Parliament in …

[(Applause)]

Thank you. The Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Transport and Infrastructure is supposed to lay a Paper. Hon. TJ Kajwang’, I have been informed that you are laying the Paper on behalf of the Committee.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table: Reports of the Departmental Committee on Transport and Infrastructure on its consideration of:

I think we are done with that. Next Order.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion: THAT, pursuant to the provisions of Article 113 (2) of the Constitution and Standing Order 150 (3) , this House adopts the Report of the Mediation

Next Order.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (C) , I rise to request a statement from the Chairperson, Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Affairs regarding the death of Mr Willis Ayieko Onyango of ID Number 11438772. On 23rd October 2024, the body of Mr Willis Ayieko was found at Mungowere Stream in Yala, Siaya County, having been brutally…

Thank you. Is the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Affairs present? Okay! On behalf of the Leader of the Majority Party, the Whip of the Majority Party? Hon. Dido, you are the Vice-Chairman. You can give assurances of when you can have this ready.

We will respond in two weeks, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

What is your point of order, Hon. Muhia?

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. On 15th October, I requested for a statement with regard to the road which crosses Nyandarua County and the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Transport and Infrastructure was represented by the leadership. Until then, I have not heard anything from the Committee. There is no commitment and yet, the public is still suffering because of lack of bumps on the Ki…

Hon. TJ, do you have a response on behalf of your Chairman as to what Hon. Muhia has raised?

Well, first of all, Hon. Deputy Speaker, we owe an apology — a serious apology — to the Hon. Member. The dates that she is speaking about

are long overdue and we do not do business like that in the Committee. There must be some practical issues, either with the agency concerned or the report writing. Allow me to return to this House tomorrow through the relevant Chairman to let this Member know exactly when she will have her statement. And again, apologies to that Hon. Member. Thank you.

Hon. TJ, you can inform your Committee that in case a Cabinet Secretary or State Department does not respond on time after you have requested for the response, you can then take the action of summoning them to your Committee rather than wait for their communication.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, that is exactly what we do. In a Committee where yours truly is a Member, we sometimes get very rough with the cabinet secretaries. So, it is not because we do not do our work diligently. I am sure there must be a mechanical problem that is holding that request for statement but tomorrow, the Chairman will let you know when you will have it.

Thank you. Let us move to the next question by Hon. Gonzi Rai, Member for Kinango. These are also responses by Hon. TJ. Are you ready with that response?

Yes, Hon. Deputy Speaker, we are always ready to respond as Members would wish us to.

You may proceed.

[[The Deputy Speaker (Hon. Gladys Boss) left the Chair] [The Temporary Speaker (Hon. Peter Kaluma) took the Chair]]

Hon. Temporary Speaker, this is a request for statement regarding the deterioration of Marere Bridge in Kwale County. On Wednesday, 19th September 2024, the Member for Kinango Constituency, Hon. Gonzi Rai, requested for a statement from the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Transport and Infrastructure regarding the deterioration of the Marere Bridge in Kwale County. In the request for st…

Hon. Gonzi Rai. Is he in the House?

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Yes, Hon. Kimani Kuria.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I rise under Standing Order 87 (5) to raise a concern about the roles and the structure of the Senate and that of the National Assembly.

Order, Hon. Kimani Kuria. We are not yet there. We are in the middle of another business. Hon. Gonzi Rai is not there and so, we will take it that the response by Hon. TJ Kajwang’ is adequate. A copy of that response will be availed to him. Who is responding to the request for statement by Hon. Joseph Lekuton? The Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Transport and Infrastructure as represent…

Hon. Temporary Speaker, this is a response to a request for statement regarding the erosion of Sirima–Loiyangalani Road. On Tuesday, 26th September 2024, the Member for Laisamis, Hon. Joseph Lekuton, requested for a statement from the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Transport and

Infrastructure regarding the erosion of Sirima-Loiyangalani Road. In the request for statement, Hon. Joseph Lekuton sought to establish, among other things:

Hon. Joseph Lekuton, are you satisfied?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I am satisfied.

Hon. TJ Kajwang’, you are the one responding to the request by Hon. David Kiplagat.

With those few remarks, I support the request for a statement. However, I plead with the National Assembly. We have talked about the issue of money for oversight. Why are we complaining and yet, we are the ones who approved the Senate Oversight Fund? Let us stop lamenting when we have powers under the Constitution. This House has powers. Let us stop lamenting.

Hon. Millie, you are saying something which is very important. Public officers or State officers are paid salaries to perform their work. The work of a Member of Parliament, whether in the National Assembly or in the Senate, is representation, legislation and oversight. How does the National Assembly give Members of Parliament in the Senate, who are already earning salaries to perform their roles,…

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. The difference between us and the Senate is that, while we know very well that what the Senate is doing is unconstitutional because they act on things on which they want to claim expansive space, we do nothing about it. We have a Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs which has representation of very senior Members of our House. You have mentioned bu…

Senate? We must call them and ask them, through the Attorney-General, why they have not developed a cabinet paper or policy that states that if a cabinet secretary appears before the Senate on a matter that has nothing to do with his or her portfolio, he or she will be sacked. I submit.

Hon. David Mboni, then lastly, Hon. Wilberforce Oundo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. This discussion is very important because the Senate has forgotten its mandate. One of its mandates is to oversee the county governments. The functions of the county governments are well spelt out in the Constitution. The Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning sought the statement because when we were coming from a meeting, we…

Member for Funyula, you have two minutes.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. We have had this debate severally, but we seem to be making no progress. I concur with my colleagues that it is time we either act or live with this mess forever. We have the advantage because the substantive Speaker came from the Senate and he understands the mandate of the Senate vis-a-vis the National Assembly. It is upon him, in his exalted position, being s…

Yet, all of them are from Parliament.

Yes, all of them are employees of the Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC) . We end up with a theatre of absurdity. The Speakers’ Panels, the senior Members and leadership of the two Houses, and the PSC, must resolve this matter once and for all.

I do not agree with the notion that the senators are idle or do not have enough work. The role of overseeing the county governments definitely gives them a lot of work. I wonder how they even wake up at 5.00 a.m. or 4.00 a.m. to spend all their day hopping from one television station to another talking about things that do not even affect the counties. There are no medicines in the county hospital…

Member for Ndhiwa.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, much has been said about this matter. Let us drain the swamp. It is us who are giving the Senate a lot of power by giving them money. We passed the law here and gave them money for oversight, bursary and whatever else they do. Let us stand for our rights and defend them. The Constitution is clear. It did not envisage confusion in Parliament. Worse still, what is happening …

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you. Members, we should now be going to the substantive business of the day. I will allow Hon. Yusuf on account of rank and then we leave it at that. We are approaching 6.00 p.m. and we have not gone into the substantive business. The matter we are talking about is straightforward. Let the chairpersons of the relevant departmental committees tell their cabinet secretaries not to appear befo…

[(Several Members spoke off the record)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I stand to support this very important request for statement. I sympathise with the Executive, and specifically principal secretaries and cabinet secretaries, because they are always in Parliament. They are now being forced to do their work in the evenings and during late hours because they are always within Parliament Buildings responding to matters that are rai…

Hon. Yusuf, did you allow the Cabinet Secretary – or did you say Principal Secretary – to ignore you and go to the Senate on a matter that is domiciled in the national Government? I am happy he did. If he refused, remove him to remind the cabinet secretaries and principal secretaries that you are the ones with powers over them, and not the Senate. Hon. Members, let us leave this debate at that. …

[(Hon. Yusuf Adan spoke off the record)]

[(Hon. Njuguna Kawanjiku spoke off the record)]

Second Reading

Where is the Mover? Let us proceed to the next Order.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Hon. Members, be notified that repeating points of order unnecessarily is in itself disorderly conduct. It can cost you very heavily. I do not want to go in that direction. Let us keep to the business of the House.

This one is for resumption of debate. The balance of time is 2 hours and 12 minutes. Who is speaking to this one? Hon. Adan Haji, do you want to speak to the matter under Order No. 9?

No, I do not want to speak on this Motion, Hon. Speaker.

Yes, Hon. Ferdinand Wanyonyi. Whip of the Minority Party, we are on the matter under Order No. 9. I see your request here. Do you want to speak to this one?

Thank you. Give me an opportunity after the next person because I am still consulting Hon. Kajwang’. I thought we were still on the issue of the Senate and the National Assembly. You know, we traditionally come from the same area. We are consulting on something to do with the 10th of this month – something I am sure you are also familiar with. Give me a chance after the next person has spoken.

Thank you, Whip of the Minority Party. Please, anybody who wants to speak to this matter should go to the intervention button. There being no more interest in the matter, I order that the Mover replies to the debate. Where is the Mover? The Mover of this Motion is the Chairperson of the Committee on Implementation. Hon. Raphael Wanjala has been in the House but he is not here now. The Mover will …

(Motion deferred) Next Order.

Chairperson, Departmental Committee on Trade, Industry and Co-operatives. He has not been in the House the whole of today. I have not seen the Chairperson of the relevant Departmental Committee. Therefore, the Motion will be deferred to a future date. Next Order.

Chairperson of Public Investments Committee on Governance and Education, are you ready to move? Hon. Wanami Wamboka (Bumula, DAP-K) : Hon. Temporary Speaker, I request that we defer this Order because the Departmental Committee on Education has not given us the Report to know how we will move forward.

When will the Report be ready?

This is Hon. Melly's Report. He is the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Education.

Are you saying that the Departmental

I am the Mover of the Bill, but the Departmental Committee on Education needs to table a report in this House.

Yes. The Departmental Committee on Education should do so. With that information, you are right on your request. The matter under Order No. 11 is deferred to a future date, when the House Business Committee will reschedule it on the Order Paper. Next Order.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Yes, Whip of Minority Party.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Actually, we were speaking about this matter earlier on. I, especially, encourage the Majority side to take this matter seriously. The chairs of committees are not doing their work and they are the ones that are making the National Assembly look bad. They are enabling the Senate to take over our work and then we come here to complain. We have just gone through th…

Both Hon. Oundo and Hon. Bisau can lead committees. Hon. TJ Kajwang’ represented the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Transport and Infrastructure very well. I cannot agree with you more, Hon. Millie. Let us proceed to the next Order, which is by Hon. Owen Baya, the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I want to say something, after taking cue from what Hon. Millie Odhiambo and other Members have said. I want to address chairpersons and vice-chairpersons of committees. We do not lack Members in this House to chair committees. We expect you to be diligent and be in the House to do your work when we have given you the responsibility of leading a committee. We agreed in Naiv…

[(Applause)]

Let us proceed to the next Order now. Is the Chairperson of the Committee on National Cohesion and Equal Opportunities here?

Yes, I am, Hon. Temporary Speaker. At least, we should also recognise the fact that some chairpersons are present.

The Temporary Speaker appreciates that you have been sitting in the House from 2.30 p.m. up to this moment. It is good to be a ranking Member. You appreciate the business of the House and your position. So, you are commended.