National Assembly · Afternoon Sitting
Tuesday, 9 April 2024
Members debated the National Disaster Risk Management Bill, acknowledging its timely relevance while raising concerns about the allocation of responsibilities between national and county governments. They highlighted the need for a functional Intergovernmental Council, clearer funding mechanisms, and uniform legislation to avoid conflicts across counties. Overall, the speakers expressed conditional support, urging refinements to ensure effective disaster response. The debate focused on the audit of NG‑CDF financial statements for Vihiga County, with members highlighting both the prudent use of funds and persistent delays caused by late Treasury disbursements and poor coordination with auditors. Hon. Oundo clarified the oversight role of MPs, defended them against mis‑attribution of fund mismanagement, and called for better induction of fund managers and timely releases to improve project delivery. Members expressed strong support for the National Disaster Risk Management Bill, emphasizing the need for county‑level disaster committees, data‑driven decision making and transparent funding mechanisms. They highlighted recent flood incidents as evidence of the bill’s urgency and called for inclusion of modern technologies such as AI and drones. While praising the bill’s progressive elements, some urged amendments to incorporate advanced tech and clearer fund management.
Congratulations, Hon. Members. We have started with a very handsome quorum.
[(Laughter)]
Hon. Members, as you are aware, the Land Laws (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 65 of 2023) was published vide Kenya Gazette Supplement No. 194 of 19th October 2023 to effect various amendments to laws relating to land. Specifically, the Bill proposes to amend the Land Registration Act, 2012; the National Land Commission Act, 2012; and the Land Act, 2012. The Bill, sponsored by the Lea…
Owen Baya, has sponsored the National Land Commission (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 43 of 2023), which accommodates the amendments proposed to the National Land Commission Act, 2012 as contained in the Land Laws (Amendment) Bill (National Assembly Bill No.65 of 2023). Having considered the Leader of the Majority Party's request and noted the attendant provisions of the Standing Ord…
Leader of the Majority Party.
Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following papers on the Table:
Thank you, Hon. Owen. Chairperson, Departmental Committee on Labour, Hon. Karemba.
Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following paper on the Table: Report of the Departmental Committee on Labour on its attendance of the Global Labour Market Conference in Riyadh, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, from 10th to 17th December 2023. Thank you, Hon. Speaker.
Chairperson, Departmental Committee on Lands.
Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following papers on the Table: Reports of the Departmental Committee on Lands on its consideration of—
Next is the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Health, Dr Pukose.
Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following paper on the Table: Report of the Departmental Committee on Health on its consideration of the Community Health Workers Bill (National Assembly Bill No.53 of 2022) Thank you, Hon. Speaker.
Chairperson, Select Committee on National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity, Hon. Yusuf.
Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following papers on the Table: Reports of the Select Committee on National Cohesion and Equal Opportunity on—
Thank you. Next order.
Chairperson, Public Petitions Committee, on the status of Petition No.6. Hon. Sitienei, are you the Vice-Chairperson?
Yes, Hon. Speaker.
Go ahead.
Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise pursuant to the provisions of Standing Orders 44 (2) (d) and 208A to report to the House the status of Public Petition No. 6 of 2024 regarding delays in posting medical interns, absorption of Universal Health Coverage (UHC) contract staff, conclusion of Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) , and recognition of agreement in the health sector in the country. The Hou…
Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I want to thank Hon. Janet and the Public Petitions Committee for the opportunity they accorded me and the petitioners. The cries from the gate emanate from our medical doctor interns demonstrating in the street. I want to inform the members that the Ministry of Health assured me in the morning that they already have letters posting intern doctors to various hospitals. The…
[(Hon. Opiyo Wandayi spoke off the record)]
Yes, Hon. Opiyo Wandayi. Are you on a point of order, or do you want to make… Use a microphone.
[(Hon. Opiyo Wandayi spoke off the record)]
Hon. Speaker, I was saying that a few minutes ago, I faced serious challenges and difficulties accessing Parliament. The gate facing County Hall is blockaded by multitudes of doctors clad in lab coats and other attires. I have listened to the Chairman of the Committee, my very good friend, Hon. Pukose. We have a problem at hand. First and foremost, as Parliament, we need to address that blockade …
will happen next. I hear that other Kenyans are planning to join them. That is not an idle threat. Other Kenyans are now planning to join the doctors on the streets. Unless something happens and we persuade the doctors to leave the streets and go back to the hospitals, these statements will remain statements. I was talking to my friend, Hon. (Dr) Nyikal, a veteran medical doctor. I am even surpri…
[(Applause)]
On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.
There is a point of order, Hon. Wandayi. Yes, Hon. Pukose.
Hon. Speaker, it is true that a medical officer intern has been in the university for six years, but architects have also been in the university for six years, engineers five years, and all of them graduate and become interns. Lawyers graduate and become interns, too. So, an internship is part of the training. When you graduate as a doctor and transition to an internship, you are under the supervi…
[(Loud consultations)]
Hon. Wandayi, wind up.
Hon. Speaker, I hear the Chairman of the Committee, who is also an accomplished medical doctor. With all due respect, all that Hon. Pukose is saying is pure academics. We know for sure that even the Ksh70,000 you are offering the intern doctors is not in the CBA that was signed between the doctors and the Government in 2017. That CBA has not been waived as we speak. What is the Government doing? I…
here is mere academics. I do not think we will go far if we continue with this kind of spirit and thinking. Thank you, Hon. Speaker.
Thank you. Leader of Majority Party.
Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for giving me the opportunity. I want to agree with what all the contributors to the statement have said: that, indeed, our doctors are valued and that many of us depend on them. However, it should not be lost to us that just a decade ago, this country would only produce an average of 300 doctors from our two public universities that were churning out medical graduates. B…
In law, there is no obligation to pay a pupillage student.
[(Laughter)]
Hon. Speaker, I will take your word because you have run an accomplished law firm. As you say, there is no obligation to pay intern lawyers under pupillage. Therefore, for doctors to earn what they are earning today is a privilege. They are amongst the most privileged professionals in our country. Hon. Speaker, beyond their internship, which is mandatory…
On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.
There is a point of order, Leader of Majority Party. Hon. Mwenje.
Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise under Standing Order 1. Is it in order for the Leader of the Majority Party to compare a pupil who is not qualified to practice, who does not even appear in court, which is the opposite of intern doctors who actually prescribe medicine? They treat people out there. Is he in order to compare those two professions? I am a lawyer, and I understand what I went through a…
Hon. Mwenje, if you listened to Dr. Pukose's very clear explanation, there is no difference. When I was a master of Hon. Soipan, Hon. Kindiki, and many others, they were obligated to show gratitude, and that is all, but I am not saying it is applicable to doctors because I do not want to wade into that. The Leader of the Majority Party is on the Floor; I will give you a chance.
Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Let me not respond because you have responded to Hon. Mwenje, who claims to be a lawyer. The lawyer I know behind me, Hon. Njeri, tells me that she would earn Ksh12,000 as a pupillage lawyer; that is why I said that this internship programme could be likened to that two-year pupillage for lawyers and the two-year post-graduate training practice for architects and engineers…
[(Applause)]
[(Applause)]
now have experience in matters dialogue. I can tell them that dialogue works, but not on the streets. It works from your boardrooms in the Ministry of Health, not at the gates of Parliament.
Order. Wind up.
Stop blocking parliamentarians from coming to speak on your behalf. We are here to speak on your behalf. They should not block Hon. Njeri or Hon. Marianne Keitany from accessing the gates of Parliament. They should not block the Leader of the Minority Party who was coming… Did he join them and address them? Hon. Speaker, we empathise with them. However, we appeal to the medical professionals tha…
[(Several Members spoke off the record)]
Dr Nyikal. Hon. Members, this was an interim Statement on a Petition. After Dr Nyikal contributes, we will move to something else.
Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I feel sad that in this country…
Prosecute your views quickly because you have three minutes.
I feel sad that we speak without feelings when the lives of ordinary people in this country are concerned. Two days ago, a two-year old child literally died in my house having gone to hospital for two consecutive days without getting treatment. We are seeing symptoms of the problems in the health sector. We have problems with human resources. We have problems with the Kenya Medical Supplies Autho…
[(Loud consultations)]
Order. If your time is up, it is up. I will give you one minute to finish.
Hon. Speaker, we make a mistake when we equate a medical intern to all other interns. It is not that way worldwide. Engineering and architectural interns are not the same in all countries.
Thank you, Dr Nyikal. Next. Order, Hon. Nyikal. Yes, Member for Starehe. Order, Dr Nyikal. I know you have vast experience in the medical world. Order. It is not any different from what we have heard from Dr Pukose and others. Go on, Hon. Mwago.
[(Hon. (Dr) James Nyikal spoke off the record)]
[(Hon. (Dr) James Nyikal spoke off the record)]
[(Hon. (Dr) James Nyikal spoke off the record)]
Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I wanted to contribute to this issue because the picketing is happening in my constituency. I have been getting calls from all corners asking me what is going on in my constituency. It is such a shame that we have got to the point where doctors are picketing given that being a doctor is considered one of the most lucrative careers for the youth. On the issue of interns an…
Hon. Mwago, your points are being prosecuted before the Committee. You would probably have taken a different direction if you had listened to Hon. Sitienei.
I wanted to bring the issue to the fore because I do not think doctors are in the mood to picket. It is only that they have not been heard. There is also the issue that the Leader of the Majority Party has brought out so well. He stated that there are more than 2,200 intern doctors who have graduated and will be absorbed. From the records, there were 7,893 intern doctors in 2018. We now have over…
Last on this, let us have Hon. Ruku. You have three minutes like everybody else.
Thank you, Hon. Speaker. The county governments have serious functions as far as the health sector is concerned. The functions
medicine. All dispensaries, and levels four and five hospitals across the nation are under the management of the county governments. However, more than 80 per cent of the county governments have seriously failed Kenyans as far as management of the health sector is concerned. This House must call upon all the county governments to take health matters more seriously, failure to which we will institu…
Thank you. Order, Hon. Members. Members on their feet, take your seats. DK, take your seat. Hon. Members, we will go back to Order No.2 for a Communication that was delayed.
[(Members stood in the gangway)]
in the building will be ready for occupation by the end of this week. Hon. Members, you may recall, on 1st November 2022, I directed the Clerk to allocate part of the building earmarked for the National Assembly, in readiness for occupation at the appropriate time. Further, I prescribed the criteria for allocation, consequent to which the Clerk allocated the offices, committee rooms and ancillary…
First Readings
Hold there. Order, Hon. Members. Order, Hon. Musa Sirma.
[(Hon. Musa Sirma consulted loudly)]
[(Several Members stood in their places)]
Hold on, Clerk-at-the-Table. Order, Hon. Members. Order, Hon. Musa Sirma. What you are doing is out of order. Hon. Members, take your seats. I know it is the first day after the short recess, but the levels of excitement far outweigh the two weeks we have been away.
On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.
Hon. Naisula, what is your point of order? Give her the microphone.
Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I listened to Hon. Sitienei, Member for Turbo, and the weighty matter that she presented on the Petition. She requested for more time for them to complete its consideration. It is important for you to give direction on how much more time they can have, looking at the gravity of the matter.
Thank you, Hon. Naisula. I should have given you an opportunity at that time, but there were a lot of loud consultations. Hon. Sitienei, are you in the House? Hon (Dr) Pukose said I had permitted them to meet tomorrow which has turned out to be a public holiday. For them to invite outsiders to Parliament, our Standing Orders require seven days. They have requested to expedite the invitations to me…
They are churning out reports that will be brought to the House. There are Members who have presented petitions on behalf of other Kenyans. When those reports will be brought to the House, you are not obligated to debate them. You need to go through them. If there are any issues you wish to raise, bring them to the attention of Hon. Speaker and I will accommodate you. Thank you. Before we call o…
Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to welcome the clergy from the EAPC in Kenya. I am very delighted to have them here led by one, Right Rev. Bishop John Njeru, who was once my Sunday school teacher. He has now become the general overseer of the Church. They have come when we have doctors’ strike. Their entry into Parliament was obstructed. So, it took them a little longer to g…
Thank you, Hon. Karemba. Next Order. Second Reading
Mover.
Hon. Temporary Speaker. I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Decentralized Funds Accounts
since its establishment in 2003. Hon. Members can attest that the Fund has helped transform our communities through the development and maintenance of infrastructure projects, especially in schools and other educational facilities, as well as provision of bursaries to needy students. These NG-CDF funded projects have stimulated economic activities in the constituencies by providing employment oppo…
adequate disbursement of funds to the NG-CDF Board for immediate release to the constituencies. Hon. Temporary Speaker, the Committee also observed that in all the constituencies examined, documents were availed late for verification during the audit period. It recommended that the accounting officer should ensure that the Fund Account Managers comply with the provisions of Section 62(1) (b) and …
the maintenance of books of accounts and preparation of financial statements. Lastly, on the accuracy of financial statements, the Committee observed that Fund Account Managers experienced challenges in adopting to the International Public Sector Accounting Standards’ (IPSAS) reporting framework in preparation of financial statements. The standards were introduced in the Financial Year 2013/2014 …
Who is seconding the Motion?
May I request Hon. Muthoni Ikiara to second.
Hon. Muthoni Ikiara should have the microphone to second.
Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I beg to second the Motion on the Report of the Decentralised Funds Accounts Committee on its consideration of the financial statements for the NG-CDF for five constituencies in Vihiga County for financial years 2013/2014, 2014/2015 and 2015/2016. I wish to appreciate that the NG-CDF is one of the funds that are felt on the ground. It is important to note that th…
ensures timely and adequate disbursement of funds to the NG-CDF Board for immediate release to the constituencies to avert these massive delays. I also wish to reiterate that the Committee observed there was poor coordination between the office of the Auditor-General and the Fund Account Managers particularly regarding the timely response to audit queries. The Committee further observed that ther…
Thank you, very much.
[(Question proposed)]
Hon. (Dr) Wilberforce Oundo, Member for Funyula.
Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Allow me to commend the Decentralized Funds Accounts Committee for the wonderful job they have been doing and to also sympathise with them as well. I hope they are listening so they can receive my sincere sympathy. Trying to audit books of account from 2014 and 2015 and debts is a herculean task. So, they must have Solomonic wisdom to have unravelled this matter.…
to oversight Government funds. Indeed, this is what Members of Parliament do in the National Assembly and also in Mashinani in respect to the NG-CDF. Firstly, I want to reiterate very clearly for avoidance of doubt, that Members of Parliament are not Members of the NG-CDF committees, at the constituency level. Secondly, with the change of the law, even when Members of Parliament by any accident u…
county government officials hovering around with sirens and carrying special chairs to sit on during funerals. Once they are done, they carry those chairs, load them onto pickups and zoom to the next function. The impact of county government funds, equitable funds, and even their own source revenue is nowhere to be seen. That is why I call upon Kenyans of goodwill wherever they are to fight tooth…
On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.
Just a minute, Hon. Oundo. What is out of order, Hon. T.J. Kajwang’?
How can I be out of order?
You know, Hon. Temporary Speaker, this good professor will never be out of order, but sometimes he forgets that he is speaking to the nation. I did not want to interrupt my friend, although I saw that he has fairly prosecuted this matter. But looking at the House, I would have really wanted Members from Vihiga to be here. Although we are discussing public expenditure and how it should be audited b…
people were here to debate this more robustly, so that the people of Vihiga, as a people, can feel that their money is utilised properly and are audited properly. And even the Auditor-General who is not in this House… You see, there should be annexures so that people understand that this is money from the national Government audited by an independent Auditor-General within the law, and brought to…
Do you have the numbers? It is confirmed to me that we are operating below the requisite quorum. I order that the Bell be rung for 10 minutes.
[(The Clerk-at-the-Table conducted a headcount of Members present)]
[(The Quorum Bell was rung)]
Hon. Members, the time being 6.30