National Assembly · Afternoon Sitting

I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table:

Thank you. Next is the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Environment, Forestry and Mining. Let us have Hon. Kamuren.

Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table: The Report of the Departmental Committee on Environment, Forestry and Mining on its consideration of the agreement on the establishment of the Global Green Growth Institute (GGGI) . Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I beg to lay.

Next Order.

I beg to give notice of the following Motion: THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on Environment, Forestry and Mining on its consideration of the agreement on the establishment of the GGGI, laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 20th November 2024 and, pursuant to the provisions of Section 8 (4) of the Treaty Making and Ratification Act of 2012, approves the Rat…

Thank you. On the next Order, Members, you know that we have two Cabinet Secretaries today; namely, the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the Cabinet Secretary for Agriculture and Livestock Development. They are coming to respond to your Questions. But before that, we will go to Order No.8 and put the Question.

tomorrow afternoon, in accordance with the provisions of Article 132 of the Constitution. As Members, the Office of the Clerk should have advised you on the arrangements that have been put in place. There is a little inconvenience. All Members, without exception, except the Leadership, will be required to park your cars at Bunge Tower. Come with your drivers, be dropped at the gate and let your dr…

Clerk-at-the-Table, go back to Order No. 2. We have a Communication that was brought in late.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Pursuant to Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I request for a statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation regarding the policy applied by Safaricom PLC on transmission of political messages. In recent months, numerous users of various Premium Rate Service Providers (PRSP) and customers whose applications for sender I…

The Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Communication. Hon. Osoro, who is the Chairman? Is it Hon. KJ?

It is Hon. John Kiarie.

Where is the Vice-Chair or a Member of the Committee?

The Vice Chair is Hon. Alfah Miruka, but we have Hon. Bernard Kitur here.

Hon. Kitur, we are breaking next Thursday. Are you able to bring a response before then?

Yes, Hon. Speaker. We will try to do that.

We will give you an opportunity on Wednesday afternoon.

I am well guided.

Thank you. Hon. Members, in the Public Gallery, I want to acknowledge the presence of Shisele Tosha Community-Based Organisation from Ikolomani Constituency, Kakamega County, who are visiting the House of Parliament. On my behalf and

that of the House, I welcome the delegation to the House of Parliament and encourage them to feel at home. We will now go to Questions. (The Cabinet Secretary for Education (Mr Julius Migos Ogamba) was ushered into the House)

Cabinet Secretary for Education, we have quite a number of questions directed at your Ministry. We are constrained with time. I expect your answers to be succinct, precise and concise. To each Question, there will be the questioner, a clarification and probably one joyrider at the very most, so that we can run through quickly. Question 016/2024

Hon. Robert Mbui, Member for Kathiani. The Question is stayed. Question 089/2024 This is a Question by Hon. Stanley Muthama, Member for Lamu West. Can we have Hon. Stanley Muthama? In fact, in enforcing your early attendance to the House, Hon. Robert Mbui’s question is dropped. Hon. Stanley Muthama’s question is also dropped. Question 090/2024

[(Question 016/2024 dropped)]

[(Question 089/2024 dropped)]

Hon. Speaker, could the Cabinet Secretary for Education –

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. The answer to question one is that the Government has not issued or made any policy directive to transfer secondary school teachers who are teaching physics, chemistry, biology or history to junior secondary schools. There is currently no such policy in place from the Government. Regarding question two, junior seco…

[(Mr. Julius Migos Ogamba)]

[(grades one to three)]

[(Grade Four to Grade Six)]

provides for seven lessons per day, resulting in 35 lessons per week, with four breaks, including a daybreak. For junior school (grades seven to nine), the timetable features eight lessons each day, with each lesson lasting 40 minutes. Students complete 41 lessons per week, including pastoral times, and have four breaks each day. Hon. Speaker, I wish to confirm that the official timetable does no…

Member for Westlands.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Bwana Cabinet Secretary, we have teachers who are employed by the Boards of Management (BOMs) . Sometimes, when those teachers are absorbed by the Teachers Service Commission (TSC) , they find themselves being posted outside their original jurisdictions. Often, they are not even allowed to return to the schools that supported them. In my constituency, BOM teachers were pos…

Yes, Hon. Ferdinand Wanyonyi. You will be the only joyrider to that Question.

Hon. Speaker, in response to question number four, the Cabinet Secretary has stated that it is illegal for schools to hold lessons over the weekend. Why is this the case, considering there is a culture of compensating for missed classes on weekends in case a teacher is absent during the week? Sometimes, teachers need to catch up on some lessons.

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Regarding the BOM teachers who are absorbed by the TSC, once teachers are absorbed, they are subject to the guidelines and regulations governing the TSC. One of those guidelines allows for their transfer to work anywhere in the country, which explains why some were moved to different locations. As for the teacher-student ratio in junior se…

[(Mr. Julius Migos Ogamba)]

organisations will retool the existing teachers to ensure they are well-prepared to teach grade nine in junior secondary, thereby reducing the gap. The current shortages are largely due to financial constraints but, as we secure more funding, we will continue to increase the number of teachers and improve the teacher-student ratio. We will also utilise other resources, including digital teaching a…

Next is Question 091/2024 by the Member for Kinango, Hon. Gonzi Rai. Question 091/2024

Hon. Speaker, I rise to ask the Cabinet Secretary the following Question: Could the Cabinet Secretary provide the status of the delayed pension payment for Mr Salim Mndalu Ndegwa who was a teacher at Nzovuni Primary School up to 30th June 2022, when he was put on compulsory retirement?

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. The processing of Mr Salim Mndalu Ndegwa's pension stalled due to the disparities in his set of names, as indicated on the various documents in the TSC record. The teacher's names on record seemed to refer to different persons. The Commission communicated this to the teacher. He was requested to obtain a deed poll i…

[(Mr. Julius Migos Ogamba)]

Hon. Gonzi Rai, I think that is very clear. Do you have any supplementary?

It is clear, however, what bothers me is that on the 6th of February 2024, I wrote to them to inquire if there was any problem. The Cabinet Secretary stated that they responded on 15th February 2024. However, the teacher has not received that letter and is currently in the hospital. I request a copy of that letter, and I will facilitate the processing of the deep poll for the exercise to be expedi…

Provide the details to the Member. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : We will provide the details before we leave.

[(Hon. Julius Migos Ogamba)]

Hon. Dido Raso.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. The issue that has been presented to you is not a stand-alone issue. Teachers work for very many years, maybe 40 or 45 years, and sometimes stretching up to 50 years. But when it comes to pension, they actually slack. They spend a lot of money to come to Nairobi to look for their pension. Are you able to put a policy in place such that those who have worked for many years …

Hon. Milemba. I am discouraging many joy riders, but give Hon. Milemba the microphone.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I conform. The way the question has been answered makes it look very simple and easy, but by good luck, somebody else has talked about it. What is the Ministry doing about pensions for teachers? It is now a broad thing that is affecting many families. Many teachers are unable to get their pension on time. Thank you.

Hon. Dorothy, what is it? I said I want only one joyrider. Give Hon. Dorothy the microphone.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I, too, rise to ask the Cabinet Secretary what they are doing to streamline pension payments, to alleviate the suffering of teachers who retire. It is evident that, as it has been alluded to, teachers work for close to forty years and, after retirement, they languish at home. Some of them eventually die even before they receive their pension payment. Thank you, Hon. Speak…

Question 093/2024. Member for Nairobi County, Hon. Esther Passaris. Question dropped. You cannot joyride on no question! Question 094/2024 by Hon. Victor Koech. Is Hon. Mandazi in the House? Hon. Victor Koech of Chepalungu. Question dropped. Question 096/2024 by the Member for Nyeri Town, Hon. Duncan Mathenge. Hon. Mathenge. Question dropped.

[(Question 093/2024 dropped)]

[(Hon. Atieno Bensuda spoke off record)]

[(Question 094/2024 dropped)]

[(Question 096/2024 dropped)]

Question 097/2024 by the Member for Emuhaya, Hon. Omboko Milemba. Question 097/2024

Hon. Speaker, could the Cabinet Secretary for Education –

There was a question on promotion of teachers by TSC. I did not have that question on record and so, I do not have the data. I could be given time to get the data and then I can respond to it. It was not on the question paper.

Thank you. Hon. Milemba.

The honourable Cabinet Secretary has given a very straight jacketed answer to my question. Parents’ associations were actually supposed to be managed in a way that we have a safety valve in our schools. It was the responsibility of the ministry to make sure that, that organ is operating. This is because originally, we had several of them which were competing against each other, in a way that educa…

In all schools or in some specific schools?

All school in all places. What is the ministry doing in its responsibility of running of education as the Ministry of Education, to make sure that, that happens? He cannot run away from it.

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Hon. Speaker, as I have indicated, the parents’ associations in our schools are functional and they are available. What may not have taken place is the elections in the National Parents’ Association, which is like an umbrella body. I am getting that information now, that there have not been elections in six years. I am going to look into it…

[(Mr Julius Migos Ogamba)]

Thank you. Hon. Passaris.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I know you called my Question when I was not here. I apologise. We have a delegation from China and I had asked a question to the delegation and I had to wait for the answer. It would have been unparliamentary to ask a question to a foreign delegation and leave before they give the answer. I beg to ask Question 93/2024.

I have not given you authority to ask the Question. You are only to explain why you were not here.

Hon. Speaker, you know we bring these Questions because we changed the Standing Orders for cabinet secretaries to come to the House. It will be such a shame that I am in the House, but I cannot ask a very important Question, as a representative of the County of Nairobi. So, I beg for your indulgence.

I had dropped the Question. Upon your explanation, I will reinstate it. But we will come back to it later. Member for Yatta, Hon. Robert Basil, on Question 98/2024. Question 98/2024

Hon. Speaker, I beg to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Education the following Question: Could the Cabinet Secretary explain why the Ministry’s policy does not include provisions for hardship allowances to Technical Vocational Education and Training (TVET) tutors in Yatta Constituency, despite their counterparts who are employed by the Teachers Service Commission (TSC) receiving such allowances? Th…

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. At the outset, I wish to state that there are different allowance schemes for teachers who are employed by the TSC and technical trainers who are part of the national Public Service. The current designation of hardship areas for the national Public Service is set out in the circular by the Chief of Staff and Head of…

[(Mr Julius Migos Ogamba)]

Hon. Basil.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. The response is not satisfactory. It is actually discriminatory when you say some tutors should not receive the hardship allowance like others who are facing the same challenges as them. The Ministry needs to do some research to ensure parity when it comes to giving hardship allowance to tutors. I also have another question on capitation funds. In 2023, there were arrears…

Hon. Anthony Oluoch.

Thank you Hon. Speaker. In a related question, the Cabinet Secretary has a duty to let Members know what the general policy of the Ministry is, to ensure that TVETs, which this House allocates money to every year and is supposed to be a bridge between secondary schools and universities, do not collapse. I ask this because of the perennial non-remittance of capitation to TVETs. Could the Cabinet Se…

Hon. Bartoo.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I have a related question on TVET. When is the Cabinet Secretary planning to complete the construction of Moiben Technical and Vocational Training, which has been incomplete for the last 15 years?

Hon. Members, I said only one joyrider and now, I can see so many hands. Hon. Taitumu.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. The issue of hardship allowance is a weighty matter in this country. In 2021, a tripartite taskforce went round the entire country, mapping out regions that needed to be included as hardship areas. Is the Cabinet Secretary aware that the report has not been released? Why is that? The taskforce involved the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Interior and National Admini…

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Thank you, Hon.

[(Mr Julius Migos Ogamba)]

Speaker. To Hon. Basil’s question on capitation, capitation is normally released based on the Exchequer release that is received and it is distributed across the country to all the learners. I was here before and indicated that there has not been a year when 100 per cent capitation has been released. There is always a shortfall. As a Government, we try as much as possible to ensure that we distrib…

He has not answered all the questions.

Which question has he not answered?

That the sub-county directors of education are immobilised. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Thank you. Quite recently, in the Financial Year 2022/2023, we got resources to buy some vehicles for sub- counties and they were all distributed. We will come back to request for more resources and budgetary allocation to ensure that, at least, each sub-county has a vehicle. We want to give them ve…

[(Mr Julius Migos Ogamba)]

Thank you. Question 99/2024 is by the Member for Kibwezi West, Hon. Mwengi Mutuse. I received a letter from him nominating Hon. Edwin Mugo Gichuki to ask it on his behalf. Go ahead. Question 99/2024

Hon. Speaker, I rise to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Education the following Question: Could the Cabinet Secretary:

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I wish to confirm that the University of Nairobi has ownership of the 12,000 acres of land at Kisayani, Kibwezi West Constituency under Land Reference Number 25060. That land was allocated to the University by the Government of Kenya in 1988, following a comprehensive process of relocation and compensation of the or…

[(Mr Julius Migos Ogamba)]

Thank you. Hon. Mugo.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. I do not have any follow-up question. However, I request for a written response so that the substantive Member can follow up on those promises that the Cabinet Secretary has made through his response.

He will give you. Question 100/2024 is by Hon. Caroli Omondi. It is dropped.

[(Question 100/2024 dropped)]

Question 148/2024 is by Hon. Geoffrey Makokha, Member for Matayos. Question 148/2024

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I rise to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Education the following Question: Could the Cabinet Secretary—

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. The Ministry has drafted a policy document titled “The Kenya School Meals Policy.” The draft has been developed through a collaborative approach involving the Ministry of Education, the United Nations World Food Program, the National Council for Nomadic Education in Kenya (NACONEK) , the Rockefeller Foundation and…

[(Mr Julius Migos Ogamba)]

national and county levels. The draft policy is to be subjected to the constitutional processes of stakeholder validation and public participation prior to its publication and adoption by the Cabinet. The Ministry targets to have the policy in place by the end of term one in 2025. Hon. Speaker, the Ministry works with county governments in covered areas to enhance access to school meals for learn…

Hon. Anthony Oluoch.

Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. Allow me to congratulate the Cabinet Secretary for recognising the existence and role of APBET. The reason is because there are about three million students in the Republic of Kenya who are neither in public nor private schools, and are excluded under the definition of

Article 43 which states that every person has a right to education. I, therefore, want to thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for recognising those APBET institutions. However, are you aware that the bureaucracy underneath your office, beginning with the sub-county directors, undermines the Legal Notice of 2015 that anchors the idea of APBET? To begin with, NEMIS, which is a requirement for recognition…

Hon. Mary Emaase.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. It is good that you have given me the chance before the Cabinet Secretary responds because it is related to the questions that have been raised by the Members. Cabinet Secretary, all the Ministry’s directives to schools are disregarded. I am particularly concerned because in my constituency, for every ten births that are recorded in hospitals, six of them are children und…

Hon. Kajwang’. Kindly give him the microphone.

Hon. Speaker, first, allow me to congratulate the Cabinet Secretary for his intellectual honesty to admit some things which have not been admitted in his docket ever, including the issue of alternative basic education. This is a bold step that the cabinet secretaries before him and the operatives under him, have never embraced. This is in the entire Nairobi and the informal settlements. This is th…

Thank you, Hon. Kajwang’. We will do so. Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Articles 43 and 53 of the Constitution require us to provide education to all the children up to the age of 12; and if we are not able and somebody else is willing to do it for us, it is then upon us to ensure that we recognise and give them the support that they need to ens…

[(Mr Julius Migos Ogamba)]

look into the Bill, the Ministry will create a directorate that would be responsible for that particular sector so that all the issues can be dealt with just like we are doing with other students.

[(Applause)]

Yes, Hon. Passaris. First, let us have Hon. Mathenge.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. First, please, allow me to apologise for being late. I seek the Speaker's indulgence to kindly, with a lot of humility, allow the reinstatement of my Question 096/2024.

Where were you when I called it out?

Hon. Speaker, I had rushed to the constituency to attend to something, having been here earlier in the morning. In view of the Question and what is happening in our universities, I kindly seek your indulgence.

Okay, take your seat. Hon. Esther Passaris, you can ask your Question. Question 93/2024

Hon. Speaker, I rise to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Education the following Question: Could the Cabinet Secretary–

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. The Ministry recognises that the objective of the resolution to standardise school

[(Mr Julius Migos Ogamba)]

uniforms across the country is to ensure that school uniforms do not become prohibitively expensive. The Presidential Working Party on Education Reforms also captured in their report the matter of the prohibitive cost of school uniforms. They noted that school uniforms are expensive for parents because school administrators collude with suppliers and force parents to purchase from specific supplie…

Secondly, we also have awareness and sensitisation campaigns. The curriculum includes lessons on the dangers of alcohol and drug abuse, helping students to develop resilience and decision-making skills to avoid those substances. The Ministry also collaborates with organisations such as the National Authority for the Campaign Against Alcohol and Drug Abuse (NACADA) to raise awareness about the effe…

Hon. Passaris.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, through the Speaker. I recently took a young girl who had not gone to school because her parents had no money to buy uniforms. This was a public school in Nairobi County. The cost of mattresses, blankets and everything the family needed was Ksh30,000. That transition is not happening at the moment. Since you provide beds in the boarding facilities, can you also provid…

Yes, Cabinet Secretary?

determine what uniforms they want for their particular schools. Maybe, as a country, that is a conversation we should have to move towards bulk purchases organisation, just like we moved from books. It took a long time to transition to the bulk purchasing of books. It is a conversation that we will continue having to see how that will work. The other question was...

The other was just a narrative of something she did recently. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : I think it was a narrative, but thank you for that.

[(Mr Julius Migos Ogamba)]

Hon. Mathenge. Question 96/2024

your support to implement the policies. All of us are affected by what is happening in the universities, and it is time that we put all cards on deck so that we can solve the problems. Thank you. I submit.

Hon. Wangwe.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. This is a House of Records. When a Cabinet Secretary responds in the affirmative, it means the situation is wanting. The Cabinet Secretary has just confirmed that 23 of our universities are insolvent. What does that mean? It means the universities are unable to pay or own debts. In terms of understanding the financials, they are supposed to be given two directions: either …

Hon. (Dr) Nyikal.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I would like to bring to the attention of the Cabinet Secretary that, as the law stands, now with respect to the Commission for University Education (CUE) , the Kenya Medical Practitioners and Dentists Council (KMPDC) does not monitor the training of medical and dental students. That work is left to CUE, but I am not too sure whether it has …

I want to close this matter. Hon. Ngogoyo.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Mine is brief. Cabinet Secretary, you are aware that TSC has confirmed that they lack science teachers in this country. What are you doing because the Ministry owns the colleges? What are you doing to make sure that we have science teachers? In my constituency, there is no deployment of any teacher for science lessons in JSS. All the teachers we have are for art lessons. W…

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Thank you. On the question of universities' technical insolvency, the new funding model was introduced to ensure that they have sufficient funds to turn them around. Based on the simulations that have been done and with proper governance, all our universities in this situation will come out of the doldrums in the next three or four years. T…

[(Mr Julius Migos Ogamba)]

programmes to support students who are taking science courses. For example, we want to provide support in terms of resources so that a science student is supported much more than one who is doing arts so that we can get more science students.

That is affirmative action.

Hon. Robert Mbui, ask the very last Question.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for your indulgence. First, I apologise for coming in after the Cabinet Secretary to ask this Question. I rise to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Education the following Question: Could the Cabinet Secretary—

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : In preparations for the transition to Grade 9, we have focused on three main aspects: Provision of adequate classrooms and furniture, provision of adequate textbooks and recruitment of additional teachers. Regarding classrooms, the Ministry undertook a countrywide assessment, which found out that the total classroom requirement for Grade 9 …

[(Mr Julius Migos Ogamba)]

undergo further re-tooling in November and December to prepare them for Grade Nine students. During the same period, 19,960 JSS head teachers will be re-tooled. In collaboration with the Centre for Mathematics, Science and Technology Education Africa, the Commission has provided specialised tailor-made re-tooling programmes for 7,700 teachers that is integrated in science and mathematics. Hon. Sp…

be done progressively to bridge the gap and ensure optimal staffing levels as resources become available. To enhance the capacity of JSS teachers, including school heads, the TSC continues to provide in-service training through multi-agency approaches. This ensures that all teachers are re-tooled to effectively implement the Competency-Based Curriculum (CBC) and deliver quality learning outcomes.…

Hon. Robert.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. Allow me first to inform the Cabinet Secretary that Members of Parliament do not construct classes. I have heard that, but we do not want it to go on record. It is NG-CDF that does that, but not Members of Parliament. Numbers do not lie. The Cabinet Secretary has clearly indicated that a total of about 16,000 classrooms will be built for pu…

Enough, Hon. Mbui. Cabinet Secretary.

Hon. Speaker, I am not done. The Cabinet Secretary was taking a joyride on my Question. He talked about resources and textbooks, but he did not mention the laboratories that are needed for JSS. Can he tell us when we will get enough laboratories for our schools? Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

[(Hon. (Dr) Makali Mulu spoke off the record)]

Let him answer that first. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I indicated that an assessment was done to determine how many classrooms would be required for our students' transition from Grade Eight to Grade Nine. It came to 16,000 classrooms. The Ministry of Education is undertaking its construction. Additionally, the NG- CDF - in partnership with the Ministry - will …

[(Mr Julius Migos Ogamba)]

Cabinet Secretary, the most important issue he is asking is what you will do when classrooms are not ready, and when children resume school. Secondly, can you tell the country whether you have prepared the necessary facilities, like laboratories in the schools? The others are a repetition of what you have said. The Cabinet Secretary for Education : I have said that 16,000 classrooms will be read…

[(Mr Julius Migos Ogamba)]

year. Once we finish with those classrooms, we will start their construction. As we speak, they are not there.

On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.

Yes, Hon. Makali Mulu.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I agree with Hon. Mbui regarding the construction of classrooms by Members of Parliament because this is a House of Records. I also want to follow up on an earlier matter that is quite serious. We need your indulgence. The Cabinet Secretary mentioned in his Statement that universities are insolvent. Those of us with financial background cannot allow that to go on record. …

Cabinet Secretary, are they technically insolvent or insolvent? The Cabinet Secretary for Education : Technically insolvent, Hon. Speaker.

[(Mr. Julius Migos Ogamba)]

[(Laughter)]

So, the words “actually insolvent” are expunged? The Cabinet Secretary for Education : They are expunged. Thank you, Hon. Speaker.

[(Mr. Julius Migos Ogamba)]

Order, Hon. Members!

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. My question is directed to the Cabinet Secretary for Agriculture and Livestock Development. I will take just one minute to provide some background, as this is a follow-up to an action by the previous Cabinet Secretary. Cabinet Secretary, on the 31st of August 2023, I wrote to the then Cabinet Secretary for Agriculture relating to the use of carcinogenic pesticides …

Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for Agriculture and Livestock Development : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. First of all, we have been seized of this issue for a long time, and it has been discussed many times in various committees and on 26th August, a comprehensive Report was tabled in the Committee on Implementation. Regarding the question on the status of the recommendations of the Nationa…

[(Dr Andrew Mwihia Karanja)]

recommended by that Committee, and we have already done the gazettement. So that action has been taken. The other one was the analysis of the product in the Kenyan market. We were requested to analyse the pesticide products in the Kenyan market. The response is that 31 active ingredients and associated end-use products have been reviewed and we have provided in Annex 4 of our report details of al…

ensure that all the pesticides are well labelled and the necessary information given. The label should have signals, words, precautionary pictograms, hazard symbols and be compliant with the global harmonised system of classification and labelling of chemicals. All commercial labels must be in both English and Swahili for ease of interpretation. On the banning of products, we were requested to lo…

Cabinet Secretary, you have taken 20 minutes on one question. That is unacceptable. The Cabinet Secretary for Agriculture and Livestock Development : Sorry, Hon. Speaker.

[(Dr Andrew Mwihia Karanja)]

The answers must be precise, concise and relate to the questions asked. Yes, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Cabinet Secretary, I have no doubt in my mind that this response was written by PCPB. That is exactly what they have been telling me since 2022 and so, it is not an answer. You cannot say that you want to analyse pesticides and check the ingredients. You do not need to do that. World science has already confirmed in peer-review medical journals that there are harmful chemi…

You know very well that for all flowers and vegetables exports, if you do not use organic pyrethrin-based pesticides, they are returned back to Kenya. The moment they reach the airports overseas, they are tested for minimum residue limits and sent back. The moment they get to our airport, they make their way to the local market. You know very well that over 22 scientists from various universities …

Let us now go to the first Question by Private Notice by Hon. Geoffrey Ruku. Question 015/2024 is dropped. Question by Hon. Joyce Kamene. I have a letter authorising Hon. Kiamba to ask the Question on her behalf. Hon. Kiamba, go ahead. Question 027/2024.

[(QPN 015/2024 dropped)]

Question 027/2024

I think we will put the question at a later date. We will move to the next Order by the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party.

[(Putting of the Question deferred)]

Thank you very much, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I beg to move: THAT, the Kenya Revenue Authority (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, (National Assembly Bill No. 35 of 2024) , be now read a Second Time. The Bill was published on 9th July 2024. It was read for the First Time on 15th August

Hon. (Dr) Oundo, proceed.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, let me thank the Hon. Deputy Leader of the Majority Party in the National Assembly for asking me to second the Kenya Revenue Authority (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, (National Assembly Bill, No. 35 of 2024) . Hon. Deputy Speaker, as I support, I just want to raise a few concerns here and there, because this Bill is published under the name of Hon. Kimani Ichung’wah, the Hon. Leade…

prevents the transfer of funds, I would have thought that KRA would have done due diligence to ensure that the agent is financially sound. When one is put under receivership or under statutory management, there must have been a process. Once such an intention is filed, at that particular moment, KRA should terminate the agent's agreement so that the Kenyan taxpayers do not miss out any money. As …

Hon. Rindikiri

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. This Bill, short as it is, is addressing a very important function and responsibility of KRA in terms of the development of a curriculum in consultation with other institutions. I agree with the function in the proposed new sub-section (2B) (a) on offering programmes in revenue administration directly, or in collaboration with any other institution of higher learnin…

Hon. Robert Mbui.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to also add my voice to this Bill. KRA is Kenya’s tax collector. We must be very careful as a House any time we are dealing with matters taxation, even when it seems it is an easy thing. It cannot be easy, because whenever we are dealing with KRA, we are dealing with its power to collect or waive taxes. It is something that we have to …

for them by allowing every institution to offer the same courses that they offer. On this score, I oppose this Bill. This is not the right thing to do. The Bill proposes to give powers to the Commissioner-General to appoint Deputy Commissioners. Even if they went to the same institution that they have there, it taught them very basic rules on public or corporate management or governance. It is on…

There are no more interventions. We can go to the next Order. I will not put the Question because we shall continue with the debate. Hon. Dorothy Ikiara, do you want to speak on this Bill?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I am interested in the next Order, which is the Coffee Bill, (Senate Bill No. 10 of 2023) .

[(Putting of the Question deferred)]

Next Order.

On a point of order, Hon. Chairlady.

What is your point of order, Deputy Leader of the Majority Party?

Hon. Chairlady, looking at how important this Bill is at this particular instance, for us to give it due attention and looking at how people are tired and all that, and looking at its importance both to the sector and in the regions where coffee is grown, I would really like to step down this Bill for now. This will allow us to give it the full attention it deserves with renewed energy and vigour …

Hon. Chairman.

Hon. Chairlady, I have no objection to that proposal by the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party. Thank you.

Okay, I guess we can leave it there. I will request the Hon. Speaker and House Business Committee to give it priority, at the most immediate date.

[(Consideration of the Bill in the Committee of the whole House deferred)]

[(The House resumed)]

Mover of the Bill, you can report the position. That, you stand it down until further notice.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I want to report that we have agreed to stand down the Committee of the whole House, until such a time when it is scheduled next. Thank you.

That is acceptable. Let us move to the next Order.

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

What is your point of order, Hon. Oundo?

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I want to sincerely request the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Agriculture and Livestock to mobilise all the Members of his Committee, the next time the Committee of the whole House is scheduled. Ask all of them to be present. I have interacted with this Bill quite often. They can guide debate in the Committee of the whole House. Thank you.

Yes, Majority Whip.

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. It is quite unfortunate that we are in this state. This Bill was previously stepped down because of some circumstances and now by the Mover for obvious reasons. The only challenge is that looking at the very packed calendar for next week, it will not be practically possible to schedule it on Monday or Tuesday. I do not know how we will navigate. I agree with Hon. Dr…

Remember you are the Majority Whip. So, you are in charge of whipping Members. You cannot delegate.

[(Laughter)]

Hon. Deputy Speaker, as the Majority Whip, I also have the powers to delegate. So, I delegate to the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Agriculture and Livestock. Thank you.

Hon. Members, there is a lot of interest from Members on this Bill. I think it would be unfair and unjust to proceed with it now. In fact, the presumption by most Hon. Members was that since we had two Cabinet Secretaries today, we would take the usual time up to 9.00 p.m. I do not think they expected us to be that efficient.

[(Hon. (Dr) John Mutunga Kanyuithia raised his hand)]

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. Let me inform the House that today’s status quo is because we have a lot of business in the Order Paper. We should have stood down the business. Members of my Committee and Members of the Coffee Caucus were waiting. Even yesterday, they were full-house and so, sometimes, do not blame them. The Majority Whip should do his job. He should not transfer his responsibilit…

[(Laughter)]

Hon. Dorothy Ikiara, do you want to say something?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I underscore that the Coffee Bill is very important for this country, and should not be a reserve for the coffee growing areas only. It is a cash crop that is grown in Kenya and all Members should be present to execute it. That is because the areas where coffee is grown today might not be tomorrow. Let the Whips whip all the Members so that we are all present as we seek to exe…

Thank you. Chairperson, Departmental Committee on Agriculture and Livestock, in future, if you find that you have a time-bound Bill, you can just whisper to the sitting Speaker and he or she can re-arrange the Order Paper. I think he or she has a discretion to do so. Hon. Mugambi.

Hon. Deputy Speaker, since you are the sitting Speaker, you have an obligation to inform the Speaker who will be on the Chair on Monday to alter the Calendar for that day. I do not believe it is the responsibility of the Chairperson per se.

[(The Majority Whip spoke off the record)]

Let him finish.

This Bill is important to an extent that the activities of that day can be amended by the House Business Committee to accommodate it. In as much as the Chief Whip wants to inform me, he is part and parcel of the House Business Committee and also one of the Members from coffee growing zones. He is also among the mobilisation arm of this House and, therefore, he cannot run away nor inform me. He, ho…

Hon. Mugambi, I have already directed that the Deputy Leader of Majority Party ensures that this Bill be appropriately placed in the next Order Paper.

However, if any Member ever finds that the timetable is going a bit off-schedule, and the Chairpersons would know how many clauses are left, and the importance and priority of it, they can always raise their concerns on the Floor. The sitting Speaker would, therefore, have the discretion to re-arrange the Order Paper. We can now close the debate. Next Order.

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

Hon. Baya, what is your point of order?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, in the same spirit in which we have dealt with the Coffee Bill in the Committee of the whole House, with your indulgence and that of the Members here, I would like to request that you accept my proposal to stand down Orders 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 and 22. I know I need to mention each Order by way of order, but I thought I could do something called guillotin…

That, this House adopts the Third Report of the Public Investments Committee on Social Services, Administration and Agriculture on its consideration of the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the following State Corporations, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 30th July 2024 —

On a point of order, Hon. Deputy Speaker.

We have many points of order. What is your point of order, Hon. John Mutunga Kanyuithia?

Hon. Deputy Speaker, what the Deputy Leader of Majority Party is saying is that we have no quorum. I rise under Standing Order 35 that this House considers the business that we are discussing to be lacking sufficient quorum for any decision to be made.

I will rule that we have no quorum, and for us to adjourn.

We can ring the Quorum Bell for five minutes.

[(The Quorum Bell was rung)]