National Assembly · Afternoon Sitting
Wednesday, 27 September 2023
The Speaker pressed the Treasury Cabinet Secretary on whether the government has taken custody of the 10,000‑acre Miwani public land, to which the minister deferred a detailed response. The debate then shifted to the long‑standing delay in paying pensions to retired teachers, with members expressing frustration and demanding a concrete timetable, while the minister cited payment figures and resource constraints. Both issues highlighted parliamentary oversight of Treasury actions and lingering grievances over public asset management and teacher benefits. Members debated procedural disputes over amendments to a health bill, questioning the committee chair's authority to select which amendments appear on the Order Paper and accusing opponents of filibustering. The discussion highlighted concerns about public participation, the legality of cherry‑picking amendments, and a call to move forward for the benefit of Kenyans. Members debated several amendments to the Bill, including changes to Clause 6 on the social health fund’s insurance principle and Clause 8 to involve the private health sector on the board. Opposition was voiced over the amendment’s prudence, while others highlighted the need for private sector input and clarified procedural questions about amendment speed and CEO qualifications. The session featured routine procedural motions, a point of order, and brief interjections, reflecting a largely constructive but contested discussion.
Sergeants-at-Arms, you may ring the Bell. Clerks-at-the-Table, we now have quorum to transact business.
[(The Quorum Bell was rung)]
Hon. Speaker, I beg to lay the following papers on the Table:
Thank you, Leader of the Majority Party. Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Health, Dr Pukose. Wapi D.r Pukose au Vice-Chair wake? Who is the Vice-Chair of the Departmental Committee on Health? Leader of the Majority Party, bell the cat. Okay, we will stay it to tomorrow. But if he comes and he is ready before we go to the Committee of the whole House, we can be able to accommodate him.…
[(Tabling of the Paper deferred)]
Leader of the Majority Party, we have the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and National Planning.
On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.
Yes, Hon. Omboko Milemba? You had actually told me that you wanted to make a short Statement.
Hon. Speaker, I beg to ask the Cabinet Secretary for the National Treasury and Economic Planning the following Question: Could the Cabinet Secretary:
Cabinet Secretary, you will combine two Questions because they are related. Hon. Edwin Mugo.
Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for the opportunity. I rise to ask Question 150/2023 to the Cabinet Secretary. Could the Cabinet Secretary-
Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Thank you Hon. Speaker. In response to these questions, the National Treasury has not released Ksh21,782,366,530 million.
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
Is it million or billion? What I see here is billion. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning Thank you, Hon. Speaker. The National Treasury has not released Ksh21,782,366,530 and further Ksh908,888,000 towards restructuring of the balance sheet of Nzoia Sugar Company as per Sessional Paper No.12 of 2012. The funds were never appropriated after the change of Government a…
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
Hon. John Makali, do you have any supplementary question?
Yes, Hon. Speaker.
Go ahead.
Hon. Speaker, I am not satisfied with the response by the Cabinet Secretary for three reasons. One, it was a resolution of the National Assembly to write-off those debts, but they were not written off. Every time we go to the villages, we keep being asked why those debts were never written-off. The Cabinet Secretary has not explained the circumstances under which those debts were not written-off. …
We want to have a clear balance sheet so that the sugar company can begin to operate to profitability. The difficulty we have is that out of a small loan that was given of Kshs9.9 million, we have a debt of Ksh27 billion out of accrued interest, precisely arising from non- compliances with a resolution of this House. Can the Cabinet Secretary assure this House and the people of Bungoma that whatev…
Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. There is a supplementary question No.8 from my records that tries to explain the statement I have made. I would want to take those two questions because they are complementing each other. Can I do that?
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
[(Loud consultations)]
Cabinet Secretary, are you finished. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Hon. Speaker, I had raised another issue related to bailout as well as the current thinking in terms of rescuing the sugar sector. I was hoping to answer this when dealing with it because it combines the process.
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
In the course of this afternoon? If you do not have full information, write to the Member through the Clerk. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : That is in order because we have a supplementary answer to the bailout section, which we will provide this afternoon.
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
Okay. When we get there, you can deal with it. Next is Question151/2023 by the Member for Mathare, Hon. Anthony Oluoch. Question 151/2023
Hon. Speaker, could the Cabinet Secretary–
Minister. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning: : Hon. Speaker, in response to this Question in totality, the constraints are purely the Exchequer revenues. The allocation of Government revenue is guided by the Constitution, the Public Finance Management Act, 2012, the Contingencies Fund and the Commission on Revenue Allocation Act. The Constitution provides the struc…
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
Hon. Antony Oluoch, are you satisfied with the explanation?
No.
Give Hon. Antony Oluoch the microphone. Ask a supplementary question if you have any.
Thank you, Hon. Speaker and the Cabinet Secretary. I wish to ask a supplementary question, specifically on the question of the court award which we adverted to the Judicial Review No.483 of 2016. To my mind and the printed copies that they have shared, the Cabinet Secretary has not answered what steps they are taking in response to meet the court award that was issued which is still in arrears eve…
Exchequer falls short the constitutional commissions and all the other organs including Parliament are denied allocations to the extent of the Exchequer short fall? Lastly, employees of political parties are required to pay statutory deductions like the National Health Insurance Fund (NHIF), National Social Security Fund (NSSF) and the Housing Levy. How is the Ministry taking into account the pen…
Minister. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning: : Thank you, Hon. Speaker for that question. I believe we will abide by the directions provided by this House. It is this House that determines the allocation of resources and allows us to disburse them on the basis of availability. It is also this House that gives us direction and we will continue to follow them. Howeve…
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u, CBS)]
Hon. Members, Questions 153 and 216 are related. I will invite Hon. Machua Waithaka, Member for Kiambu and Hon. Kamket should get ready after him. Minister, you will answer the Questions together. Question 153/2023
Hon. Speaker, could the Cabinet Secretary –
Thank you. Hon. William Kamket. Question 216/2023
Thank you. Hon. Abdi Shurie Question 295/2023
Hon. Speaker, could the Cabinet Secretary—
Cabinet Secretary, those are very clear Questions. Can you give quick short answers? The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Hon. Speaker, on Question 217/2023, my response is that the CBK does not regulate international card schemes domestically, from a payment’s perspective. This is because parties involved in such scheme arrangements enter into exclusive bilateral …
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
of payments legally. At the end of the day, those who use cash will recognise the cost of paying in cash because you have to travel to the point of sale. Cash remains the most frequently used means of payment within different points of sale. The most important thing is that the CBK has not declared which means of payment is feasible. Everybody is free to use any payment mode.
Cabinet Secretary, the question is very simple. Is it appropriate for businesses to refuse cash payments? That is what he is asking. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. It is not appropriate to refuse cash payments. It is legal and binding. That is what I wanted to say.
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
Yes, Hon. Dawood.
Hon. Speaker, I am not satisfied with the answer given by the Cabinet Secretary. I am surprised that the Cabinet Secretary would say they do not regulate merchants who use cards like this and Mastercard. Why then do we regulate banks? Why do we regulate digital payments like M-Pesa? If this country will not be in a position to regulate Visa, how are we able to go into contractual agreements with a…
Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Hon. Speaker, the CBK approves products for any commercial banks that present different types of products, including payments products. However, there are some payments that are encrypted and that means you abide by the conditions. It approves conditions of service, but does not regulate the day to day transact…
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
Question 294/2023 by Hon. Walter Owino, Member of Parliament for Awendo. Question 294/2023
Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I have provided very elaborate tables and answers from Page 20 to this Question. Between the period 2019 and 2023, the company received a bailout from the Government through the Agricultural Food Authority (AFA) aimed at addressing farmers’ arrears and factory maintenance as detailed …
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
Hon. Walter Owino.
Hon. Speaker, I am not very satisfied with the response, more so on the issue of payment of arrears to farmers considering that these arrears are dated back to 2019 when canes were supplied to some of those factories. I want the Cabinet Secretary to tell us when these farmers should be expecting to be paid their arrears. Should they wait for the transaction of leasing these sugar factories to end …
One at a time.
Okay. Thank you, Hon. Speaker.
Hon. Donya.
Thank you, Hon. Speaker. When the Cabinet Secretary is giving answers, it is like all Members are saying that they are not satisfied.
Can you ask your question?
Even when we ask questions, the answers given are not clear to us.
Yield the Floor. Hon. Caroli Omondi.
Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. Could the Cabinet Secretary update the House on what steps the National Treasury has taken, being the custodian of all Government assets, in respect of recovery and preservation of the Miwani 10,000-acre land in view of the Court of Appeal decision when it was the last court of resort that that land is public land?
Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. Let me say that in terms of arrears to farmers, I may not provide answers to that because I am not aware of the magnitude and how long it can take to get those funds. So, in essence, it is a question that can be followed up. The second thing is that custody of national assets…
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
Cabinet Secretary, the question very simple. The Court of Appeal said that Miwani land belongs to the public, to which you are the custodian. Have you taken custody of that land? That is the question Hon. Caroli has asked. So, no theories. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I have to follow it up with specific actions that have been taken…
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
Are you in custody of the 10,000-acre Miwani public land declared so by the Court of Appeal? If you do not have a ready answer, we can give you time. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Hon. Speaker, I do not have a ready answer to that question, but I just wanted to answer in a general way on what is specific to the National Treasury.
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
To be fair to you, it was not a question framed earlier, but I direct you to write to Hon. Caroli Omondi and give him the answer. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Hon. Speaker, I will do that.
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
We now go to Question 296/2023 by Hon. Gabriel Kagombe. I thought I saw Hon. Gabriel Kagombe in the House? Question dropped. Question 296/2023
The last Question is by Nominated Member, Hon. Dorothy Ikiara. Cabinet Secretary, once you finish that, I will give minutes to Members who are agitated about the Kenya Revenue Authority issue. Question 356/2023
Hon. Speaker, could the Cabinet Secretary—
Thank you, Hon. Dorothy. Cabinet Secretary, have you found your response? The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Hon. Speaker, I am getting my response. It is a long one.
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
It is the last Question on the list. I encourage you not to go the long response route because the questions are very straight forward. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Hon. Speaker, let me say that this matter is a long one and it is presented in a very detailed way in terms of what has happened in the court cases up to the Senate. What has happened is that, in…
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
Hon. Dorothy.
Thank you, Hon. Speaker. I am not satisfied with the response because the Cabinet Secretary is answering about teachers who retired and had been awarded a salary increment in 1997. This is 27 years down the line and he is talking about a balance of 11,000 teachers who have not yet received their benefits. It is very sad to note that majority of these teachers have died and others continue to langu…
[(Applause)]
Cabinet Secretary. Those are the emotions of a former teacher. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Thank you, Hon. Speaker. Those emotions of a former teacher are very well understood. I am 10 months into this job and I stand here very sympathetic to that position. I have heard even worse stories from the Senate committees. Let me give you the exact figures that I …
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
processed and paid. The total payments amount to Ksh16.084 trillion. The remaining 1,470 revised claims are in the pipeline of payment. The list of the 22,017 claims has been shared in a soft copy on the Parliament website so that you can see what has happened. Let me say that there is a serious effort to make sure that this happens. But it is also dependent on resource availability. We are solvin…
On a point of order, Hon. Speaker.
Yes, Hon. Mwalimu Omboko
Hon. Speaker, something has come out. I do not know if the Cabinet Secretary is really right to say that the payments to the teachers is Ksh16 trillion. It sounds like there is a confusion. I cannot believe it can be trillions. Number two, he is not speaking about the current teachers who have also not got their pensions, leave alone the 1997 ones, despite the fact that pension is a first charge o…
Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning : Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. Let me correct the figure that I gave. The figure is Ksh16.085 billion, not trillion. The full stop was not clear; it appeared like a comma. I agree with the urgency of the matter. We have had these issues even at the county level and at current level in terms of pension remi…
[(Prof. Njuguna Ndung’u)]
Cabinet Secretary, pension is a contributory fund. What you probably need to do is to tax the employee at source and match what you have taxed and then it goes into a special fund. The emotional disposition by Hon. Ikiara is justified, but the answer does not match that emotion. What I will advise you is, if you can prepare a comprehensive report on the delayed pension to teachers, then when it is…
Thank you Hon. Speaker. The Leader of the Majority Party was trying to make sure that I do not ask this question, but then I will still present it. Question 296/2023
Point of order, Hon. Chairlady.
Wait. Let me call the House to order and then you can raise your point of order because we have not even begun. I now call the House to order. This is the Committee of the whole House to consider the Digital Health Bill (National Assembly Bill No.57 of 2023) . We will also consider the Social Health Insurance Bill (National Assembly Bill No.58 of 2023) . We shall start with the first one; the Dig…
Thank you, Hon. Chairlady. The point is very simple. We have just come from the plenary. We made interventions which Hon. Speaker in his wisdom made a ruling which is right that those issues can be canvassed in the Committee of the whole House.
These are the issues which we want to bring to your attention and seek your guidance on, before we begin. The point is simple. We request you to look at the Order Paper and re- order it just to make it convenient to some of us. Instead of waiting for Order No.8(i), some of us can do parliamentary assignments in this House elsewhere. It is unlikely that we may prosecute, finish or reach Order No.8(…
I think you are speculating that we may not get to Order No.8 (ii) . Why not see how much progress we will make in the next 30 minutes with Order No.8 (i) ? We are starting with Order No.8 (i) . That is what we always do in the House.
[(Hon. TJ Kajwang’ spoke off the record)]
We request you to re-order the Order Paper. You need to listen to us. If this is the case, because we have issues with…
Hon. TJ Kajwang’, I have just ruled on that. We shall proceed with the Order Paper as set out. We shall start with the Digital Health Bill.
Hon. Temporary Chairman.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered the Digital Health Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 57 of 2023) and its approval thereof with amendments.
Mover
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said report. I request Hon. Beatrice Adagala to second the Motion for agreement with the report of the Committee of the whole House.
Thank you Hon. Deputy Speaker. I stand to second.
[(Question proposed)]
[(Question put and agreed to)]
Mover.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to move that the Digital Health Bill (National Assembly Bill No.57 of 2023) be now read a Third Time. I also request Hon. Julius Taitumu to second.
Hon. Deputy Speaker, I second.
Hon. Members, the time being 9.13 p.m., the House stands adjourned until Thursday, 28th September 2023 at 2.30 p.m. The House rose at 9.13 p.m.
Published by Clerk of the National Assembly Parliament Buildings Nairobi