National Assembly · Morning Sitting

Hon. Members, pursuant to provisions of Standing Order 41 (4) , I wish to report to the House that I have received a Message

from the Senate regarding the passage of the County Allocation of Revenue Bill, Senate Bill No. 25 of 2024. Hon. Members, the Message conveys that, on Wednesday 4th December 2024, the Senate considered and passed the President’s reservations to the County Allocation of Revenue Bill, Senate Bill No. 25 of 2024, with amendments that do not fully accommodate the President’s reservations. Hon. Membe…

Hon. Members, we will start with the Deputy Majority Whip. You may proceed.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table:

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you very much, Deputy Majority Whip. What is out of order, Hon. Millie Odhiambo?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. As a House, we do not do things in vain. I am wondering about all those Papers that have been laid. When do we get time to look at them? Two weeks ago, a non-Kenyan asked me if this is merely for cosmetic purposes or we look at them. We are always laying reports. Maybe we need to relook at what comes to Parliament. This is purely cosmetic, we need to do real work…

I do not want this to be a subject of debate. For your information, these Papers go to audit committees.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Is anything out of order, Hon. Kangogo?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I agree with you that these reports go to audit committees. So many reports are tabled in this House, including reports from the Auditor-General and they are examined by the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) . Sometimes, they raise issues to do with expenditure in ministries. The reports from the Auditor-General and those from audit committees should be used durin…

Hon. Murugara, you also want to weigh in on this matter? Member for the Tharaka.

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker. We have to be alive to two things as we discuss this issue. The observation by Hon. Millie Odhiambo is correct. These Papers are laid in the House but we do not consider all of them as required. sThe House may not consider all of them as required, but we must also be alive to the fact that some of these Papers are required to be laid on the Table as a w…

I would not like to encourage a lot of debate on this. Hon. Millie Odhiambo-Mabona has been in this House for a very long time and clearly the matter that she is raising is important and especially for Chairs of Committees. I think it is important for you to consider or to make sure that you do a follow-up on the Papers that are laid so that if it concerns your Committee, you get interested and fo…

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker. As you have said, I think it is worth noting that these reports are discussed in committees. Being the Vice-Chair of the Public Debt and Privatisation Committee, it is important to state that the Report on Privatisation by the Privatisation Commission which has been laid on the Table was discussed by my committee. We got an advance copy, discussed and m…

I think it is the work of the House Business Committee to create time so that even if it is 10 minutes, the Chair of the Committees can come here and say what the reports entail and then inform Kenyans about some of the findings. But it is a very important role, it is our oversight role to comment on these reports. I submit.

Hon. Millie together with the House, I would like to refer to the Constitution, Article 229 on the Auditor General which states thus: “1. There shall be an Auditor-General who shall be nominated by the President and, with the approval of the National Assembly, appointed by the President.

I am here, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you very much, please proceed.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table; Report of the Committee on Powers and Privileges on its consideration of the Parliamentary Powers and Privileges (Amendment) Bill, Senate Bill No. 5 of 2022.

Thank you very much. Next is the Chairperson, Constitutional Implementation Oversight Committee. Maybe the report is not available. Next is the Leader of the Delegation, Hon. Millie Odhiambo-Mabona. Please proceed.

And there I go, Hon. Temporary Speaker, laying another Paper. Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table:

Next Order. Thank you, the Chairperson, Committee on Implementation. That one has not actually been tabled. I go to Hon. Millie, Leader of the Delegation. You have a Notice of Motion. As Hon. Millie gets the document and before I come to you, Hon. Mwinyi, for the convenience of the House, I will reorganise the Order Paper. After that Notice of Motion by Hon. Millie, we will move to Orders No. 8 t…

There is nothing out of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Yesterday, Hon. Speaker directed that the Chair of Departmental

We have not reached statements. We have reorganised the Order Paper, so we will get there. When we get there, if there is a problem, you will raise it.

I am going for a Committee meeting, if you may consider that, please.

Hon. Member for Changamwe, you have a lot of experience. You know that this is the first business of the House. The House takes precedence over any other business so, the Order Paper has been reorganised. Hon. Wanjala. What is out of order, Hon. Wanjala? Please pass the microphone to him. Go to the microphone on your left.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, after Millie Odhiambo, I am supposed to be the one who follows and you have “jumped” me.

Are you referring to Hon. Millie Odhiambo-Mabona?

Yes, Hon. Millie Odhiambo.

The Minority Whip?

Yes.

Then you have to speak properly.

Minority Whip. It is me who is supposed to be laying the Papers, but you have “jumped” me.

[(Laughter)]

Hon. Wanjala, maybe you had stepped out. You may proceed and lay the Paper.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the House: Reports of the Committee on Implementation of the following:

Hon. Wanjala, you laid the Paper. End it at that first. Hon. Millie Odhiambo, please proceed. For the record, Hon. Millie Odhiambo is the Whip of the Minority Party.

I am the Head of the Delegation to the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) , for the purposes of this report. Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion: THAT, this House notes the report of the 149th Assembly of the IPU and related meetings held in Geneva, Switzerland, from 13th to 17th October 2024, laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 5th December 2024. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Hon. Wanjala, you may now proceed and give the notice of Motion.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion: THAT, this House adopts the Third Report of the Select Committee on Implementation on the implementation status of reports on petitions and resolutions passed by the House, laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 5th December

Thank you very much, Hon. Wanjala. Next Order is as per the reorganised Order Paper.

Hon. (Dr) Nyikal.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. On behalf of the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Health, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, pursuant to provisions of Standing Order 120 (1) (c) , this House resolves to reduce the publication period of the Kenya Institute of Primate Research Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 52 of 2024) from 14 to nine days. This is a very important Bill dealing…

over that period. Therefore, I request the House to support this so that we can move the publication and start this process going on. I ask Hon. (Dr) Oron to second.

Did you move the Motion, Hon. Nyikal?

Yes, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I beg to move and ask Hon. Oron to second.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I second the Motion.

[(Question proposed)]

Hon. Martha Wangari.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I know we want to put the Question, but I want to support the Committee on reduction of the publication period on this specific Bill. Some of us come from areas where there are monkeys that are a menace to the community. I have areas called Gong and Acre Tano where farmers cannot farm because of monkeys. If you go to the KWS, you are sent to this Institute, which…

Hon. Millie Odhiambo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I support the Motion. Part of the reason is what Hon. Martha has stated. We need to deal with monkeys. I stay next to a river and many times I get visits, sometimes when I am alone. We have not trained monkeys on gender issues. They have no regard especially for women. If my husband is around they run away, but when it is me, they do not care. We have to find way…

Hon. Millie Odhiambo, I know that this matter is very close to you, and I would like to confirm that I have worked with Hon. (Dr) Pukose. I was his Chairperson in the 11th Parliament. He is a very effective Chairperson. As you have said, the Committee is organised. I am also aware that the Bill has taken long. Hon. Members, I would like to ask that we do not debate this matter. It is only a Proce…

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

I will only give Hon. Peter Kaluma a chance. What is out of order?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, Hon. Millie Odhiambo has mentioned you in her Statement which was way out of the Motion that was before you. In fact, I do not know why you did not declare her irrelevant. It was just a Procedural Motion yet she is bringing in issues concerning her Bill, and contemplating debate on it. Now that I have been mentioned, I want to confirm to the House that I am ready to transac…

With all due respect, Hon. Kaluma, you are also debating the Bill.

I am not. I am just saying that Hon. Millie has accused some Members of filibustering or delaying a Bill. Am I in order to confirm to the House that it is her who is making it difficult for us to transact this Bill? This Bill had been sent for harmonisation but she ran away from there. She wants to proceed before a report is tabled, and now she is blaming everybody yet she is the one pushing with…

Put the Question!

I will avoid going to the matter of the Bill that Hon. Millie Odhiambo is raising.

[(Question put and agreed to)]

You may take your seats because this is slightly long. Hon. Rutto, please, take the nearest seat. Hon. (Dr) James Nyikal and Hon. Tim Wanyonyi consulted loudly) Order, Hon. Nyikal and Hon. Tim.

[(Hon. Julius Rutto walked into the Chamber)]

Hon. Members, as per the reorganisation that we did earlier, we are going back to Order 7, on Questions and Statements.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I wish to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation regarding the regulation of Starlink Satellite Internet Services in Kenya. Hon. Temporary Speaker, Satellite Internet, which is powered by satellites in space, plays an important role in global connectivit…

Thank you, Hon. Beatrice Elachi. Is the Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation, Hon. KJ, in the House? Is the Vice- Chairperson or a Member of that Committee in the House? I can see Hon. KJ running in. When will you be able to respond to this request for a Statement?

[(Hon. John Kiarie walked into the Chamber)]

Hon. Temporary Speaker, we will process the request for a Statement immediately. However, we will report to the House in the first week after we come back from recess.

Is that okay, Hon. Beatrice Elachi? Thank you very much. Hon. Lillian Siyoi, proceed with your request for a Statement.

[(Hon. Beatrice Elachi spoke off the record)]

Thank you. This request for Statement regards poor internet and telephone connectivity in Tarbaj Constituency and the larger Wajir County.

Pursuant to Standing Order 44(2)(c), I rise to request a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation regarding the poor internet and telephone connectivity in Tarbaj Constituency. Tarbaj Constituency, which is strategically located in between some parts of Ethiopia and some parts of Somalia, faces significant social and economic challe…

Hon. Charles Nguna, what is out of order?

There is nothing out of order. I just want to add my sentiments. If you travel in some parts of this country, you will realise some parts do not even have an existing network completely. I would like to ask the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation to make sure each and every village in this country is properly and adequately connected to Safaricom…

Hon. Charles Nguna, you know this is not your request for Statement. With a lot of respect, I will give you just like a minute because I want the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation to tell us when he is going to respond to the Hon. Member of Tarbaj. I am sure he is waiting to know. In a minute, please.

I thank you. I just wanted to emphasise the issue of connecting the whole country with proper network so that each person can have access to information. Before I conclude, let me congratulate Arsenal for beating Manchester United 2-0.

Obviously, that is not relevant. The Chair of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation, when are you going to respond?

[(Loud consultations)]

We have a very, very serious Order Paper this morning. I think we are sometimes extending a little bit of our joy to where it should not be extended.

Point taken. Take your seat. Take your seat. Hon. KJ, the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Communication, Information and Innovation.

I thank you. The Member for Tarbaj has raised a very serious issue. Hon. CNN gives us very good additional information. The Committee shall engage the Communications Authority of Kenya. We shall also engage the Telcos and request that this Committee be accorded time, up to 28th January 2024 to make a response. That is so that we can understand the problem with connectivity, especially bearing the…

Please, give us the timelines when you are going to respond to the request for Statement.

As I had said, we are requesting for time up to 28th January 2025 to come back with a comprehensive report.

Thank you very much. Member for Tarbaj, is that agreeable?

Yes.

Thank you. Hon. Members, I will give a chance to Hon. Yusuf Farah. Make your Request for Statement very quickly.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to request for a Statement regarding compensation of victims of the Wagalla Massacre. Pursuant to provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs regarding compensation of victims of Wagalla Massacre. The Wagalla Massacre that occurred on 10th February 1984…

Thank you very much. Hon. Chairman, Member for Tharaka.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. We promise to do this as soon as we resume because we have to get information from the relevant Government agencies regarding exactly how far it has been ascertained who is supposed to benefit, and if there are any provisions made on compensation of those victims. It was a very sad incident that occurred at that unfortunate time. We will give a detailed Statement…

Thank you, Hon. Chairman. Hon. Yussuf Farah, is that agreeable?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, this issue has been here for a long time. It is a very sad situation. The Government has promised to solve this issue so many times. I request the Committee, through you, to call the relevant agencies and invite me to that meeting to conclude this matter.

Do you agree with the timelines that he has given? Is that okay?

No, it is too far.

You have just presented a Statement today. The Chairman has said that he will bring a response during the first week after recess.

I am inquiring whether the Committee can sit during the recess period.

Hon. Chairman.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Yes, we may have time to sit because there is room after the vacation when the committees will be sitting. We do not know whether we will have a response by then. I request this Statement to be forwarded to the relevant Government agency immediately, and inform us as soon as a response is received. We will then look at it. If there is a need to summon the relevan…

Hon. Daudi, do you want to say something on this Statement? Please, do so in a minute.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. As Hon. Farah has said, this was a dark chapter in our history. The more we darken it and kick the can down the road, the more it will fester. As Hon. Yussuf has requested, the Committee, of which I am a Member, should call these relevant agencies and invite the Member to thrash out those issues. After that, bring the response to the House instead of just waiting…

Thank you, Hon. Daudi. Hon. Members, this House has faith in the leadership of Hon. Murugara. I assure you that this Statement will be responded to very well. Let us not prescribe to the Committee how or whom they will invite. It will also seek possibilities of sitting during the recess. But, we will go by the first week after recess, as the Hon. Chairman has indicated. Every other issue that has …

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Hon. Gonzi Rai is lucky because I had checked where he sits a few minutes ago, and he was not there. I thought that I would just table the answer. Now that he is in, I have the response.

But please summarise it.

Hon. Gonzi Rai rose to ask a Question regarding Makamini Dam and I wish to state the following: Makamini Dam Project is located west of Makamini Shopping Centre in Kwale County. The project is funded by the national Government and implemented through the Coast Water Works Development Agency. It aims to improve the access of water to more than 400 residents in Makamini, Kinangoni, Matumbi, Mtaa, M…

The scope of the Makamini Dam includes the construction of a 12-meter high earth fill dam, with a crest length of 766 meters and a width of six meters, creating a reservoir with a capacity to harvest and store 4.2 million cubic meters of water. The project includes the treatment plan with the capacity of 2800 cubic metres per day with three water kiosks to complement the distribution lines. Regar…

Centre on request, with over 100,000 litres of water already delivered. Plans are in place to build two community toilets and their location has already been identified. Additionally, the access road to Kizingo Dam has been completed, improving the community's ability to access water. Lastly, the Ministry of Water, Sanitation and Irrigation has been collaborating with the National Land Commission…

Hon. Chairman, I know it is very hard to summarise a document that is not yours. Please assist the House by summarising.

In fact, I am on the last point. I want to state that the Ministry is determined to complete phase two of Makamini Dam and achieve the constitutional rights of water for the communities around the project. This report is signed by the Cabinet Secretary for Water, Sanitation and Irrigation, Eng. Eric Muriithi Muuga. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Hon. Chairman. What is your position Hon. Gonzi Rai, Member for Kinango Constituency in a summary?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I will summarise. The report is good on paper but on the ground, things are bad. Over 160 families were affected by this dam in 2021. To date, they have not been settled. When will the Hon. Chairman visit the affected persons? He can call for a meeting with the Coast Water Works Development Agency, ministry and affected persons so that they can be given a timelin…

Thank you very much, for summarising. Hon. Chairman, when will you address the issue of the PAPs?

The Hon. Member is aware that the Ministry has constituted a grievance redress committee. It has composition from the Coast Water Works Development Agency, Kwale County Commissioner, Kwale County Government and the NLC.

As the Chairman, are you able to deal with this issue? A committee has been constituted and NLC is in a different ministry.

This is within the purview of the ministry because it is a multi-sectoral issue, which involves NLC, the ministry and Kwale County Government. I will follow-up with the ministry so that they can speed up the process.

That is when the House resumes in good time?

The first week after we resume.

Thank you very much. Hon. Gonzi Rai, he will get back to you in the first week after we come back.

This grievance redress committee has been there since 2021. I am requesting the Committee to give an undertaking because nothing has been done. People are suffering. So, the Committee should handle this matter. I will truly appreciate.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I will lead a visit to Makamini Dam, the second week after we resume. I will invite the Hon. Member for a meeting on the ground. The Temporary Speaker (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) Thank you very much.

I appreciate, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Hon. Chairman, you are also giving a response to a statement raised by Hon. Joseph Namuar. I can see him in the House. Proceed and summarise.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. This is an issue about Kalawase River floods in Turkana County. I wish to state the following: That the National Water Harvesting and Storage Authority has been carrying out flood control in Kalawase River. The objective is to divert the course of the river by excavating a 100 meters wide diversion channel and blocking the old course using gabions. This was done …

Thank you very much, Hon. Chairman for summarising. Member for Turkana Central is the answer satisfactory? Are you satisfied with the written response you received?

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. From the outset, at least the ministry is honest and sincere that this project has continued to fail in its implementation. On the ground the projects done were destroyed by the river which is inside Lodwar Town. As you know, this is the headquarters of Turkana County. The people of Napatet Village have lost their property including their ancestral land. Over 150…

the Hon. Chair to visit together with his Committee and look at this project. It is ironic to find that the adjacent area that the Chinese did is doing very well, but Soweto...

Please do not over-debate. I think you have done it very well.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, this is very critical for me as a representative of that area. In that area, there are still internally displaced people (IDPs) . People are homeless and this is because people are being told to implement some given project but nothing is happening. I want the Government to take this issue seriously. We can start with the Chair. He should visit and see what has been happeni…

Chair, in a minute. How are you going to deal with this serious matter that has been raised by the Member for Turkana Central?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, it is true. I want to agree with Hon. Emathe that the budget issue is a problem. The Hon. Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee is here. Our budget is based on projections. Sometimes they say we are going to collect this amount and it does not materialise. Assuming this project was allocated Ksh250 million, but because of the budgetary issues, they started with K…

Thank you very much, Hon. Chairman. Next Order.

Hon. Millie, is it about this Bill? We are already in the Committee of the whole House for this specific one. We have two sets. Under Order No. 12, we are only dealing with the President's Reservations. Then we will break it. Then there is another Order No. 15 that deals with the Person with Disabilities Bill then the Startup Bill and lastly the Assisted Reproductive Technology Bill. Hon. Millie…

THAT, the Bill be amended by deleting the First Schedule and replacing it with the following new Schedule:

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I think this morning there was a very detailed Communication from the Hon. Speaker in terms of what has happened to this important Bill. What is interesting is that the President has assented to the Division of Revenue Bill, which now becomes an Act of Parliament. In that Division of Revenue Act, the figure was Ksh387 billion. It automatically means t…

[(Hon. Martha Wangari)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. As much as we support devolution and support that the counties should be given money, I do not support the County Allocation of Revenue Bill. We are living in extraordinary times where the money that was supposed to be given to counties was reduced to about Ksh387 billion. In most of these counties, we do not see what these monies do, especially money allocated…

Urban Roads Authority (KURA), Kenya Rural Roads Authority (KeRRA) and Kenya National Highways Authority (KeNHA) should not go to counties because they have not shown us exactly what they do with their money compared to KeRRA. As we know, KeRRA has the capacity even in terms of competent engineers. I support the President’s Reservations on the County Allocation of Revenue Bill. The Temporary Chair…

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move: THAT, the President’s recommendations to the First Schedule be deleted and replaced thereof with the following:

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. The Temporary Chairlady : What is out of order, Hon. Millie?

[(Hon. Martha Wangari)]

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I seek your guidance on whether when one moves an amendment to President’s reservations, there is a requisite number of Hon. Members needed on the Floor. The Temporary Chairlady : Hon. Millie, that was made clear in the Speaker’s Communication. This does not require that threshold. Hon. Ndindi.

[(Hon. Martha Wangari)]

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I also thank Hon. Naomi Waqo for moving that amendment. The initial amount designated for counties as shareable revenue was Ksh400.1 billion. We amended that figure to Ksh380 billion in this House. When we presented it to the Senate, they suggested returning to a figure close to the original amount of Ksh400.1 billion. After further mediation, we reac…

[(Hon. Martha Wangari)]

No, thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I also rise to support the amendment by the Leader of the Majority Party. We need to move forward as a country. The revenue we were to collect from the Finance Bill 2024 reflects a shortfall. The amount of Ksh387 billion represents an increase compared to what was received last year, and we should support this amendment.

The majority of the speakers before me are in support of devolution. However, we also need to see the value of the funds we allocate to the counties. Issues related to roads, health and drugs in public hospitals need to be addressed. County governments need to rise to the occasion as far as devolution is concerned. Currently, there is not much difference in the conditions across the counties; many…

Hon. Temporary Chairlady, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the House its consideration of the President’s reservations on the County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Senate Bill No 25 of 2024) and its approval thereof with amendments.

[(Question proposed)]

[(Question put and agreed to)]

[(The House resumed)]

Hon. Chairperson.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered the President’s Reservations on the County Allocation of Revenue Bill (Senate Bill No. 25 of 2024) and its approval thereof with amendments. The Temporary Chairlady : Mover.

[(Hon. Martha Wangari)]

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Committee in the said report. I would also like to thank all the Members for their participation in this process and the related activities. When we allocate funds to our counties, we take into account several instruments. I appreciate all the Members who have contributed to the budget-making process, the appropriation, the div…

and the current County Governments Additional Allocation Bill, which is currently in mediation. This House fully supports devolution. We support our governors for the good work they are doing, even with the limitation of resources. We are all leaders playing for the same team and direction. We are playing and pulling in the same direction. Every effort we put in making sure that Kenya moves forwar…

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I join my Chairman in appreciating those who have been involved in this process. It has not been easy to get to where we are today. I thank the Senate, the National Assembly and the mediation Committee for ensuring that we have this resource for counties. We need to note that all these resources we are appropriating, either for the national or county le…

[(Hon. Kassim Tandaza consulted loudly)]

Order, Hon. Tandaza. (Consideration of the President’s Reservations to the County Allocation of Revenue Bill passed)

[(Question proposed)]

[(Question put and agreed to)]

Next Order. Chairperson of the Mediation Committee on the Conflict of Interest Bill, Hon. Murugara.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion: THAT, pursuant to the provisions of Article 113 (2) of the Constitution and Standing Order 150 (3) , this House adopts the Report of the Mediation

House with amendments. The Speakers of the two Houses formed a Mediation Committee, comprising nine Members each from the National Assembly and the Senate. When we convened, by virtue of being the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs I was selected as the Chairperson of the Mediation Committee while the Chairperson of the equivalent Committee in the Senate was sel…

From there, we moved to the Schedules. There was the introduction of a new Schedule, which we looked at and found it to be overreaching. It was overproviding, and so we went back to what you have been completing here, as your declaration of interest. This is what we have incorporated here. We have moved the Schedule from the Leadership and Integrity Act in here, to replace what was being proposed.…

[[The Temporary Speaker (Hon. Martha Wangari) left the Chair] [The Temporary Speaker (Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai) took the Chair]]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I thank the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, and also the Chairperson of the Mediation Committee on the Conflict of Interest Bill, Hon. George Gitonga Murugara, soon to be Senior Counsel. As has been ably said by the Chairman as he has dealt on specifics, the House would remember that during the delivery of the State of the…

moment those two foundational issues were resolved, it was then easy to go clause by clause, and that is where we developed the consensus easily. The third issue, obviously, was to what standards public officials, State officers and public officers, should be held in terms of the fight against corruption, bearing in mind that conflict of interest is a major cause of corruption. Our view was that …

Thank you very much, Hon. Chairman and the Vice-Chairman. Hon. Tandaza.

[(Question proposed)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I, of course, support the Bill as it is, but I am having a difficulty from what the Chairman has explained. He gave an example that for us here, where our reporting entity is the Parliamentary Service Commission, you could possibly do business with the other arms of the Government. But in this document on Part 1, preliminary up to where reporting entity means… on…

Hon. Cynthia Muge.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

What is out of order, Hon. KJ?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I rise under Standing Order 95 because the business before us is critical and very important. However, the

business landed on the Floor of the House because we had extensively debated the matter. It then went to the Senate, which attempted to change what we had come up with. It came back for mediation which was done in such a way that our proposals as a House prevailed. In the interest of time, it may not be in the interest of the House to belabour the point. The matters raised by the Chairman and seco…

That is noted, bearing in mind that this is a mediated version of the Bill. However, I would like to give an opportunity to Hon. Jematiah. She seems to be very keen to put a word on this subject.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for this opportunity. I agree with Hon. KJ that we debated this Bill extensively. However, this is a mediated version of the Bill, which is different. That is why it has been brought back to the Floor of the House. I support the Bill. It will cure most of the problems that this country is experiencing on matters corruption, such as the extensive practices by car…

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, the Vice-Chairman, and those who have contributed to the Bill. I would just like to clarify that there is a difference between a reporting authority and a reporting entity. Please read the Bill. Somebody else may read it and misinterpret it. We may end up complaining out there tomorrow that we are not the ones who passed the Bill when we actually did. Let us not…

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Before we go to the next Order, I am informed that Hon. Millie Odhiambo wants to raise a matter. I can see you are on intervention. I will give you one or two minutes. Is anything out of order, Hon. Millie?

Have you now changed from the bad girl to a good girl?

I am only good when I am in the House as Whip of the Minority Party, not when my Bill is being frustrated. I and many other women who cannot have children do not have to go through this in the House. I am also a Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) .

Hon. Millie, I can see that this is a very emotional matter. All of us are cognisant to the fact that this Bill has taken a long time. Hon. Kaluma, I know you have been mentioned three times. I will give you a chance. Nonetheless, Hon. Millie Odhiambo is right that this Bill has taken too long. I would like to give you assurance that what you have said is on record and this matter is going to be …

[(Hon. Peter Kaluma spoke off record)]

Do not worry. I never easily fall into emotional blackmail and traps. Hon. Millie, I hope you are not directing your messages at me.

You have children. That is a fact.

Nobody stops you from getting children, even now.

God has stopped me from getting.

Order, Hon. Kaluma. Please do not exchange words with Hon. Millie. I have given you an opportunity to can make your comments because I know you also have interest in the subject.

Do not allow me to be blackmailed emotionally. Let me address the issue, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity. It has been mentioned that there were deliberate efforts to delay this Bill, particularly at winnowing. As a Member of the House Business Committee, you remember I am the one who requested for that. I do not know whether you were presiding that time. I know it was not the substantive Speaker. I was personally concerned at what happens in our procedures in …

Hon. Kaluma, wind up now.

Let me wind up. When we enact laws in this House, we do so for the country. Hon. Millie is my niece. I have said it many times. I will not allow a wrong thing to pass because of emotional blackmail. Let me say that there is nothing stopping anybody from going for surrogacy if they want. Hon. Shakeel, you got your children through surrogacy.

Hon. Kaluma, please do not go personal on this subject.

Let us avoid a situation where people bring Bills to the House and then they emotionally blackmail Members to pass them. Give us directions. I have been in the House since morning, to transact this Bill. I have even missed a trip I was to go to, Paris and Madrid, because the Bill is on the Order Paper. The directions I seek, which I thought Hon. Millie would seek, is whether we are proceeding or n…

You have made your point. Hon. Members, I do not know whether to allow this debate because it is extremely sensitive. Hon. Members, I will not allow further comments on this matter. Order, Hon. Millie Odhiambo! Hon. Members, Hon. Millie Odhiambo approached the House Business Committee on the subject matter of this Bill, which was listed on the Order Paper for this morning and afternoon sittings. …

[(Hon. Millie Odhiambo shouted)]

The Bill was deferred earlier in the day. Next Order.

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. Martha Wangari): Hon. Members, we are now in the Committee of the whole House. We are supposed to consider three Bills. I have reorganised them in the Order Paper. We will start with the Startup Bill (Senate Bill No. 14 of 2022) by Hon. Irene Mayaka as a co-sponsor, the Persons with Disabilities Bill (Senate Bill No. 7 of 2023), and then the Assisted Reproductive Tech…

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairperson. I beg to move: THAT Clause 3 of the Bill be amended —

The Temporary Chairlady (Hon. Martha Wangari): There is a proposed amendment by the Chair.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairperson. I beg to move: THAT the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 4 and inserting the following new Clauses— Role of the Agency and the Estate in implementation of the Act.

Thank you, Hon. Chair. I agree with the Committee on this particular amendment and many others that I do not necessarily have to come back and comment on. The introduction of the multi-sector and the private sector gives the Bill the support we wanted, considering that they will provide a lot of support to the start- ups. Therefore, having met with the Committee and agreed on some of these things,…

[(Hon. Martha Wangari)]

Thank you, Hon. Chair. I support the proposal by the Committee. My only concern is that if you look at the multi-agency start-up committee set up here, we have not taken care of the gender balance. The challenge is that we may find a situation where only women or men are brought into the agency. We cannot consider that now because of time, but we need to consider it in future amendments. We need t…

[(Hon. Martha Wangari)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I am just wondering. This being a start-up Bill, I am sure county governments also have other entities that they would want to run. So, provision (g) as it has been put: "...any other institution or person the Cabinet Secretary may deem necessary." will it cover the county governments in their domestication of the Bill? There are also other programmes that the …

[(Hon. Martha Wangari)]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, other agencies may be involved. Actually, there is a role that county governments have been given. That role is captured in clauses 30, 31, and 32. That is where the county governments' involvement is. As a Committee, we saw that the Start-Up Bill will be a national Government innovation process, especially at the funding stage. If you look at the entities being involv…

national Government entities, Therefore, at this stage, we require the national Government's involvement. During the implementation stage, we will require the involvement of the county governments. These startups will start at various counties at the ward level. This is where the county governments will come in to help these innovations start. This is taken care of much ahead in the Bill. Thank …

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. I beg to move: THAT, Clause 5 of the Bill be amended by deleting Clause 5. The justification is that this provision of this clause has already been designated to the institutions introduced in part two of this Bill. Thank you. The Temporary Chairlady : Hon. Basil, do you want to contribute to this amendment?

[(Question of the amendment proposed)]

[(Hon. Martha Wangari)]

No. The Temporary Chairlady : The proposed amendment by Hon. John Kiarie falls because we have nothing else to amend. Part III The Temporary Chairlady : Hon. Chairperson.

[(Question, that the words to be left out be left out, put and agreed to)]

[(Hon. Martha Wangari)]

[(Proposed amendment by Hon. John Kiarie dropped)]

[(Clause 5 deleted)]

[(Hon. Martha Wangari)]

THAT, the title to PART III of the Bill be amended by deleting the words

I call upon the Temporary Chairlady to report progress.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of the whole House has considered the Startup Bill (Senate Bill No.14 of 2022) up to Clause 6 and approved the same with amendments and seeks leave to sit again.

Mover, Hon. Mayaka.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that this House do agree with the Committee in the said report. I also request Hon. Cynthia Muge to second the Motion for agreement with the Report of the Committee of the whole House.

I second.

[(Question proposed)]

Hon. Members, for the convenience of the House, I defer putting the Question to a later time.

[(Putting of the Question deferred)]