National Assembly · Afternoon Sitting

Hon. Deputy Speaker, I beg to give notice of the following Motion: THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Public Debt and Privatisation

Hon. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I wish to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Education regarding the harassment of candidates undertaking the Kenya Certificate of Secondary Education (KCSE) examination in various schools within Kitutu Masaba Constituency in Nyamira County for alleged examination irregularitie…

Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Education, Hon. Melly. That request for Statement is directed at you. Hon. Gisairo, you had better start again because he was not listening.

I will do so, Hon. Deputy Speaker. Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , I wish to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Education regarding the harassment of candidates undertaking the Kenya Certificate of Secondary Education (KCSE) examinations in various schools within Kitutu Masaba Constituency in Nyamira County, for alleged examinati…

Following reported claims of examination irregularities at Nyambaria Boys High School and St. Paul's Gekano High School, candidates in the two schools have been subjected to harassment, intimidation and victimisation. Whereas the Kenyan National Examinations Council (KNEC) is obliged to ensure proper supervision of national examinations to guarantee their integrity, the unprofessional and intimida…

Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Education, Hon. Melly, do you want to give a way forward?

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. I will bring a response within the next two weeks. I know that the matter is important and the examinations are ongoing. I will consult with the Cabinet Secretary and bring a Statement as requested.

Hon. Members, I wish to introduce to you a delegation from the Parliament of Uganda, who are seated in the Speaker’s Gallery. The delegation comprises Members of the Committee on Science, Technology and Innovation. They are:

Thank you, Hon. Deputy Speaker. On 24th October 2023, the Member for Muhoroni Constituency, Hon. Onyango K’Oyoo, requested for a Statement from the Departmental Committee on Agriculture and Livestock. I wish to report to the House that I have received a response from the Ministry, which I will proceed to read. Hon. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 44 (2) (c) , Hon. Onyango K’Oyoo reques…

Hon. Members, because the system was not working earlier on, kindly pull out your cards and re-log them so that they can be seen. Hon. Members, I seek your indulgence that we re-arrange the Order Paper and move to Order No.12. Next Order. Leader of the Majority Party, I am told that you need to issue a statement before the next Order. Let us allow them to fix the microphones. You are safer usin…

[(Hon. Deputy Speaker consulted the leading Clerk-at-the-Table)]

Hon. Deputy Speaker, this is the usual Thursday Statement. Hon. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 44 (2) (a) , I rise to give the following Statement on behalf of the House Business Committee (HBC) which met on Tuesday, 14th November 2023 to prioritise the business for consideration during the week. Hon. Deputy Speaker, I wish to commend Members and Committees for thei…

recess. I, therefore, urge Committees to expedite any pending business to enable its conclusion by the House within the remaining sitting days before we proceed to recess. Hon. Deputy Speaker, with regard to business that is scheduled for Tuesday, next week, the House is expected to consider the following Bills at various stages, some of which are listed in today’s Order Paper—

Thank you, Leader of the Majority Party. Hon. Members, before we go to Order No.10, for the convenience of the House, we will reorganise the Order Paper and start with Order No.12. Next Order.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move the following Procedural Motion: THAT, pursuant to Standing Order 30 (3) (a) , this House orders that should the time appointed for adjournment of the House be reached before the conclusion of

business listed under Order No.8 as the Committee of Supply in today’s Supplementary Order Paper, the Sitting shall stand extended until conclusion of the said business. I request the Leader of the Majority Party to second.

Leader of the Majority Party.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to second. As indicated by the Deputy Leader of the Majority Party, this is to allow us to consider the Committee of Supply. As I had indicated earlier, the Committee of Supply is the Committee of the whole House during the budget-making process, where we supply money to agencies, ministries and departments of Government. I, therefore, request Chairpersons and Vice- C…

[(Question proposed)]

Put the Question!

Is that the mood of the House?

[(Question put and agreed to)]

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker.

What is out of order, Hon. Junet?

Hon. Temporary Speaker, before we move to the next Order, which is the Committee of Supply, I wish the Leader of Majority could listen to me. As you can see in the Supplementary Order Paper, I intend to move an amendment that concerns Parliament. We will not allow anything that impedes our roles of legislation, representation and oversight as a House. We must fight anything that hampers the qualit…

Order, Hon. Junet.

[(Laughter)]

THAT, further to the Appropriations Act, 2023, the sum allocated to meet the expenditure (Recurrent and Development) for the year ending 30th June 2024 in respect of Vote 1014 (State Department for Parliamentary Affairs) be reduced by a sum not exceeding Ksh276,466,275. (Programmes 0759000, 0760000 and 0761000 agreed to)

Hon. Temporary Chairman, an increase obviously raises questions. The Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee could let us know exactly what is being changed from the Bill that we passed in June so that we appreciate the reason for the increase. A whopping Ksh2 billion is not a small amount of money. The Chair could probably enlighten the Members of this House and the public so that the…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I also want to weigh in on this one. My position on this is that all arms of Government must be enabled to operate equally. The percentage increase here compared to the decrease that is being meted on

Parliamentary Affairs does not lend itself to what we call equality of arms of Government. All arms of Government equally represent the people. We, therefore, need a justification on why there is an inordinate amount of increase to State House and a decrease on Parliamentary Affairs. I think we need to reject this one. The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): Thank you. Hon. Mwago.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I also share the sentiments of my other colleagues. We live in empirical times and we need to know the justification for such a huge increase in the allocation to State House. The Temporary Chairman : Thank you. Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I wish to relay this information to the Members who have requested for clarifications. As you are aware, the President serves our country in State House most of the times. That is where he hosts most of the delegations that you see which have a huge positive impact to our country. Therefore, that is the reason there is a slight increment. Secondly, the State Department fo…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I have listened keenly to the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee. At this point in time when things are difficult, if you look at this Supplementary Budget holistically, money is being deducted from many votes. To increase Ksh2 billion at once to State House is a lot of money, unless that Vote is for the famous rice and beef stew. The Temporary Chairma…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

All the money we are appropriating is for our country. It is good for us to understand that there has been also development expenditure in State House. We are trying to reduce the recurrent expenditure, especially for tenting, so that we have one permanent pavilion. This will help us not to incur periodic recurrent expenditure when the President is hosting delegations. This is a very valid increme…

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Chairman. The Temporary Chairman : Hon. Junet, you do not have to raise a point of order. You can just argue, if you want to do it.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee is making things even worse. We cannot budget for Ksh2 billion to construct a pavilion. We finished the campaigns the other day. There is no need of hosting delegations anymore. This is the time to tighten our belts. You can see even Parliament is losing a lot of money. All arms of Government are losing a lot of money…

The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): I think there is also arrosto. Go ahead, Hon. Chairman.

[(Laughter)]

I really beseech all Members here because the explanations I gave are numerous. I talked about the major item. The budget for State House in the Printed Estimates was totally inadequate and that was on the request of the President. Even before we funded his Office, there were other pressing needs like the education sector. Therefore, we deliberately underfunded that programme knowing there would b…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Loud consultations)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I need to say something. The Temporary Chairman : Hon. Members, it is only one vote. Hon. Mwago, I have already given you a chance.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Programme 0704000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1017 agreed to)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I want a reassurance from either the Chairman of the Committee or the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee that the reduction of prison services by close to Ksh300 million will not affect the welfare of the prisoners and other persons serving different sentences at the correctional services. Kenyans and the prisoners want an assurance that the reforms started by Uncle…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I know Hon. (Dr) Oundo knows that the State Department for Correctional Services is one of the most resourced Ministries, Departments and Agencies (MDAs) that we have. Therefore, this is a marginal cut that will not affect the clients of the State Department for Correctional Services. It only affects rationalisation in terms of the... The Temporary Chairman : Thank you v…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

(Programmes 0623000, 0627000 and 0628000 agreed to)

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I want an assurance that the increase here is not meant to facilitate our police officers to Haiti. Despite debating this matter in the morning, I later came into contact with a court order that was served to the Speaker of this House. Therefore, the deliberations this morning were sub-judice and contrary to the court order. I need assurance that these increases do not rel…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I assured this House and Kenyans that all the costs regarding the deployment of our police officers to Haiti are 100 per cent taken care of by the United Nations (UN) . No single shilling of the taxpayers’ money is going to go into this. The Temporary Chairman : Thank you. Hon. Oluoch, I think you are fully assured.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Programme 0601000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1025 agreed to)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, the Vote being reduced is captured as capital expenditure. This means that probably there was a project that was already underway. Can we have an assurance that the reduction from Ksh203 million to Ksh56 million will not lead to pending bills? This is a capital project which we expect has already been tendered, therefore, a reduction naturally leads to pending bills. The …

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I assure Hon. (Dr) Oundo that the money is there. The entire rationalisation for all Votes was because the National Treasury was targeting the projects that are yet to be committed. This will not lead to pending bills. The Temporary Chairman : Thank you.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Programme 0712000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1032 agreed to)]

No; I want to know what it entails. A whopping increase of Ksh8 billion is not pocket change. I know it can be pocket change to some of these guys. Where we come from, this is a colossal sum of money. What does this entail? I know part of it has already been disbursed under Article 223. We need to know the breakdown, for example, if it is on mitigation of El Nino which is not here. What are we spe…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I assure all Members that the money we have increased in this Vote is for modernisation of police equipment.

The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): No. We are on Vote 1036 on Regional Development.

Sorry, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I anticipated that Hon. (Dr) Oundo may also question the Vote on police. My apologies for pre-empting that.

[(Laughter)]

Just for record purposes, I hope this money will be equitably and fairly distributed throughout the country. That is my point of concern. It is possible that this money will be concentrated in one region. The Sidokho Dam, which you and I share, will burst its banks and damage all our property and crops, yet all the money will go to repairing roads that are never used in some counties. We just want…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon Temporary Chairman, we are dealing with a supplementary budget and not the main Budget of June/July. The Ksh8 billion is not small money. Can the Chairperson be clear on what the increment entails? He cannot just talk about Ewaso Ng’iro South and North Development Authorities. These are dead authorities which have not been functioning for the last 10 years. Unless he talks about the Lake Basin…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I agree I gave a partial answer. I forgot to say in this amount there is a donor funded project for food security of over Ksh5 billion. This is a World Bank project where we put money then they reimburse the Exchequer when it is expended. Therefore, over Ksh5 billion is going there. In terms of the Regional Development Authorities (RDAs) , they all have been given somethin…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Programmes 0733000, 0743000 and 1013000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1036 agreed to)]

The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): I will start with a lady Member, Hon. Irene Mayaka.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I am concerned because the amount indicated is a huge sum of money. If you see the allocation indicated in the table with a further explanation, it just states defence. We need substantiation in terms of what this exactly covers, for our understanding. The Temporary Chairman : Hon. Clive.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I am also very concerned that the Ministry of Defence is asking for an increase of Ksh8.492 billion. We would like a clarification because some few months ago, the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations sought permission to send our troops to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and said they would spend Ksh2 billion. We are very sure that …

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon Temporary Chairman, this is a colossal sum of money. The Temporary Chairman : How colossal?

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

It is Ksh8 billion. People are saying we are doing this for purposes of austerity. I am aware the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations did not approve this sum of money according to their report, because they realised it is a lot of money. The Budget and Appropriations Committee through an executive order has put this money here. The Chairperson needs to explain fu…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I want to give an explanation. The Ministry of Defence requested for Ksh900 million, Ksh600 million went to the National Intelligence Service (NIS) for recruitment, Ksh200 million to East African Community (EAC) and Ksh100 million to diaspora affairs. As a committee, we are satisfied and this is exactly what we submitted before the Budget and Appropriations Comm…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you very much, Hon Temporary Chairman. That has been handled properly by the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Defence, Intelligence and Foreign Relations, the Member for Belgut. Hon. Members, you will realise the austerity measures we are taking as a nation although for a nation that is not secure, there is no amount of austerity that can keep it secure from enemies. Proportiona…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, as you know there was a recent recruitment. We need to provide personal emoluments for them and a sizeable amount is going towards modernisation of our defence equipment.

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Chairman.

The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): Maybe a point of clarification but not a point of order. Go ahead.

On a point of clarification, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I have been here for long with you. In the budgeting system, the security sector is known for padding the budget. You must be alive to this matter. You cannot say this money is for recruitment because it was budgeted for. You cannot recruit people without money. How are you going to feed them? If you do not have money, what will you do? Will yo…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, as Hon. Junet is quite aware, when you hire, and especially mid-financial year, you need money to pay the new employees’ salaries. This is part of that money. Around Ksh6 billion is for modernisation of the defence equipment. This is a mid-year project which happens in internal security and defence, in terms of capacitating our men and women in uniform. Some of us seated h…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Chairman. The Temporary Chairman : The questions with regard to the budget have been answered sufficiently - at least to my satisfaction. Yes, Hon. Junet.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, the statement given by the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee is not satisfactory. We are doing this Supplementary Budget for the purposes of austerity. The budget for all MDAs have been cut. Other than places where there is a fishy thing, you can see things with your own naked eyes like this one, Hon. Temporary Chairman. The Temporary Chairman : The …

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Laughter)]

Give me the microphone please. It is very unfortunate for a very high-ranking Member like Hon. Junet to make such a statement. He knows that to secure this country, security is very expensive all over. If we would have been fair, we should have appropriated and allocated more resources to the security organs and he knows that. We have discussed Haiti. The Temporary Chairman : Hon. Member, you ha…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Programmes 0801000, 0802000, 0803000 and 0805000 agreed to)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I bring this to the attention of the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee. The budget is adding Ksh834,000,000 only. Is he aware that people who are serving in the diplomatic services are suffering outside the country? When we visit there as Members of Parliament, we come into contact with their plight. Some of them have not paid rent for many years. Their h…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I thank Hon. Junet for making that observation. It is precisely for that reason that we are adding money.

[(Programmes 0714000, 0715000, 0741000 and 0742000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1053 agreed to)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I am concerned about the amount allocated to the State Department for Diaspora Affairs. I can see the allocation is for running diaspora and consular affairs. This is one of the mainstream investments for Kenyans who live in the diaspora. The money allocated is not fair. The Budget and Appropriations Committee must explain why the allocation is low. Alternatively, some mon…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I differ with the sentiments of Hon. Irene. This is a new State Department. They still

do not have proper structures and that is the reason we are increasing the budget gradually. Allocation to the State Department will be increased further in the second Supplementary Budget.

Hon. Rindikiri.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I support the increment to this State Department. This Department is very critical particularly now that the President is moving around the world to look for opportunities and jobs for Kenyan citizens. Slashing or giving them a small budget will not give the Department the support it needs. I urge that the allocation be increased to a good percentage to help the…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I am Hon. Munyoro, not Munyiri. I support the increment in the allocation but Ksh1,710,293 is insignificant and cannot do anything substantive. I wonder what the explanation is on why it should be so little. I support Hon. Rindikiri that we need to increase the amount or put better structures to allocate more money to this State Department. We encourage our yout…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Programme 0752000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1054 agreed to)]

Hon. Oluoch.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. Even as I support, I want to ask the committee to look into processes and procedures that lead to procurement post-appropriation because after we have put money, our procurement takes inordinate amounts of time. I also think there is a problem when it comes to capitation for our schools and I hope it is part of this increase. The same way our universities are s…

exercising our oversight role, let us appropriate this money and also follow-up to find out if it actually reaches students on time. I support.

Thank you. Hon. Melly.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I support the appropriation and more specifically, the issue of the students. About Ksh5 billion was appropriated for the new funding formula. In the last budget, we had appropriated Ksh4.6 billion in the former funding model. As Hon. Oluoch has put it, there is enough money for the students, incomplete TVETS and the 15 that will be started. I support, Hon. Tem…

Hon. Oundo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. This question is for the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Education and Research. It looks like we are giving with the right hand and taking with the left hand. Looking at the capital expenditure, there is a reduction of close to Ksh5 billion. So, it is a net reduction from capital expenditure to recurrent expenditure. Again, as I asked earlier, I ho…

Hon. Oundo, is that a comment or a question.

A question.

Okay, Hon. Melly. He says your left hand has given to your right hand and then you have put your right hand on the back.

I think as the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee has said, it is a net increment of Ksh5 billion. So, there is no reduction. In fact, this sector got an increment and not a reduction.

[(Hon. (Dr) Ojiambo Oundo spoke off the record)]

No, he listened to you. He has said in the education sector, the right hand has not taken away from the left hand. In fact, both hands have received Ksh5 billion.

[(Programmes 0505000, 0507000 and 0508000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1064 agreed to)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, the sum being increased is Ksh25 billion. I want to hear what the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations

Committee is saying because a supplementary budget is supposed to address issues of emergency in nature. The Ksh25 billion is a lot of money. We are barely four months away from the Budget we passed… The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): Hon. Junet, I thought emergency used to be handled by Article 223 of the Constitutions and not the supplementary budget.

No, Hon. Temporary Chairman. Even the supplementary budget is supposed to deal with critical matters only. The Temporary Chairman : Okay.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Number one, what is this thing that you can increase with Ksh25 billion? Secondly... The Temporary Chairman : Hon. Chairman, resume your seat.

[(Hon. Ndindi Nyoro stood in his place)]

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Is this money just in form of paper or there will be real Exchequer? We have many times here passed a lot of money just on paper. The money never goes to the schools. The Temporary Chairman : Thank you. Hon. Makali. I request Members to put their cards so that we are able to locate them easily.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I appreciate the increase but I want to get the assurance from the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee whether this increment of Ksh25 billion will also cater for capitation on the HELB for the poor students who want to access university education. The Temporary Chairman : Thank you. Hon. Omboko.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. As I support this, the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee should assure not only this House but the country as a whole that this is now fixing the new model of funding in universities so that the students who are in universities can for once rest. The Temporary Chairman : Thank you. Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I want all Members to know that the objective of the supplementary budget was to align the current needs of the nation with the resources that we have. To answer Hon. Junet, there was an intake for our university students recently which we need to take care of. I assure him that even the students across the country received boom payment for the last tw…

On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Chairman. The Temporary Chairman : Hon. Omboko, what is out of order?

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

I want to be very clear in my mind. When the Chairman of the Budgets and Appropriations Committee talks about boom being back, is he saying that the students at the university are now receiving boom as defined by those who were in the universities those days? The Temporary Chairman : Hon. Melly, there is no boom, but answer the question.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. As Hon. Milemba has just put it, in our days we used to get boom. As we speak, students get the out-of-

pocket money up to a tune of Ksh60,000 based on the needs of every child. The very needy child gets up to Ksh60,000. It is determined by the mean testing. I want to assure all Members, the House and the entire public, that this money has already been remitted to the students by the Higher Education Loans Board (HELB). I thank you. The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): Hon. Ndindi Nyoro, d…

[(Laughter)]

Yes. From home, when we got coffee payments.

[(Programmes 0504000, 0506000 and 0508000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1065 agreed to)]

THAT, further to the Appropriations Act, 2023, the sum allocated to meet the expenditure (Recurrent and Development) for the year ending 30th June 2024 in respect of Vote 1072 (State Department for Economic Planning) be increased by a sum not exceeding Ksh2,430,260,325. The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): I call the Mover to move his amendment. Programme 0706000 – Economic Policy and Nat…

THAT, further to the Appropriations Act 2023, the sum allocated to meet the expenditure for the Financial Year ending 30th June 2024, in respect to Vote 1072 be increased by a sum of Ksh1 billion, from Ksh57,253,750,000 to Ksh58,253,750,000. These are the monies for infrastructure for Nairobi schools that we are moving from the Ministry of Education to the National Government-Constituencies Develo…

[(Question of the amendment proposed)]

I support both the Programme items and in particular the infrastructure amount being allocated to Nairobi. You will realise that Nairobi County has one of the biggest problems in informal settlements when it comes to school infrastructure. Without talking about Mathare where I come from, I will give an example of Embakasi Central where there is a school with over 4,000 students. I, therefore, supp…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Programme 0706000 as amended agreed to)]

[(Programmes 0707000, 0708000 and 0709000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1072 as amended agreed to)]

Hon. Temporary Chairperson, this was Hon. Ichung’wah’s amendment but he withdrew it.

[(Proposed amendment by Hon. Kimani Ichung’wah withdrawn)]

(Programmes 046000, 0410000, 0411000 and 041200 agreed to)

I thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. My concern is that we are in a period of heavy rains and many roads are going to be affected. As we study and deliberate on this supplementary budget, we want to get assurance from the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriation Committee that all the destroyed trans-county and national roads will be funded from the budget. I am not comfortable with this reductio…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. Why are there too many reductions yet our roads are very bad? If you go to our counties and constituencies, the first thing the people ask you is about roads. They look at Members of Parliament and roads, and then it is like we are not doing anything. Too many of these reductions will also cost us a lot. Thank you. The Temporary Chairman : Thank you. Hon. Jose…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I am actually quite disappointed because we thought the State Department for Roads needed more money. I come from an area where we are really suffering. Mau Mau trunk roads are impassable and we were hoping that this department would get more money to sort out our problems. I have seen it is a capital reduction, and honestly we should have added more money to th…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, let me also join my colleagues in expressing dissatisfaction and fear. This is a department that has many

cases of pending bills, many roads that have stalled and some were being declared politically. I do not know what plan the Committee has to resolve the issue of pending bills in the roads sector. We would probably need that assurance. The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): This cannot be a point of debate. I want to give the Chairperson a chance to respond.

On a point of order. The Temporary Chairman : Yes, Hon. Junet. One minute.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, before you go to the Chairman, we have just passed here a vote head that increased Ksh8 billion to the Ministry of Defence and we are saying we are reducing Ksh18 billion from the Ministry of Transport and Infrastructure. Where are our priorities? Or, we are just a conveyor belt on this budget? The budget-making process now belongs to the National Assembly. The National Tr…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, starting with the question from Hon. Rindikiri, roads have different kinds of funding. One is donor funding and the Exchequer for maintenance. Money for road maintenance comes from the fuel levy and it is available. All damaged roads will be taken care of. In terms of the other issues around road funding, I want to assure this House that we are working on a bilateral agree…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. To add to that, Thika Town Constituency is under Kenya Urban Roads Authority (KURA) and there is no money. There are too many impassable roads and people are up in arms. This should be looked into because it is causing problems. I have heard what the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee has said. We will give them time, but they need to look in…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Suna East, ODM)]

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, this House should be serious.

Hon. Junet, we are serious.

How can we reduce money from the transport sector? The other day, the roof at Jomo Kenyatta International Airport was leaking. Where will they get money to repair it if not from us? Tuwache hizi aibu ndogo ndogo. Let us give these people money. Let us agree not to vote for this proposal.

Member for Molo.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. We are currently in the Committee of Supply. I think Hon. Junet should tell us where we should deduct this money from. Maybe we should consider the capitation of Junior Secondary School (JSS) for the funding of these particular roads. We must agree that if we do not have the resources to do some things, they can wait. If our revenue improves, we can always come …

Thank you.

[(Programmes 0201000, 0203000, 0204000, 0205000 and 0216000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1092 agreed to)]

The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): Hon. Oundo.

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I hope both the Chair of the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning and the Chair of the Budget and Appropriations Committee are listening. When we passed the contentious Finance Bill this year, we had the impression that the money meant for housing levy was going to be ring fenced and it will not be appropriated to any other activity. With the reduction f…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, you see there is a reduction of Ksh13 billion in urban development and housing. They promised to build many markets all over the country through the urban development vote. Does this mean that there is nothing that is going to happen? Was that just hot air? The Temporary Chairman : Thank you. Hon. K.K, you removed your card. I cannot see you on the intervention screen.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. This addition of the Ksh80 billion is because – if you can remember – the passage of the budget was done before we started collecting the housing levy. Now that we are collecting this housing levy, it is going to the Consolidated Fund. We did an amendment in the Committee of the whole House during the passage of the Finance Bill and we ring fenced it and said th…

[(Programmes 0102000, 0105000 and 0106000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1094 agreed to)]

and 1023000 agreed to)

Hon. Temporary Chairman, in view of the frequent power failures and outages as a result of dilapidated power transmission lines, especially in Busia, Kenyans should be given some kind of reassurance that the re-organised budget will address this perennial problem that is starting to embarrass the country. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. The Temporary Chairman : Who is supposed to give you th…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

In the absence of the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Energy, I suppose the Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, who is the Mover of the Motion, should be in a position to give us that assurance. The Temporary Chairman : Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you very much, Hon. Oundo. As you can see, the amounts that we are dealing with in regard to that Department are quite marginal. I, therefore, assure you that you will continue to have consistent power. There have been maintenance challenges, which Kenya Power is dealing with.

[(Programmes 0211000, 0212000, 0213000 and 0214000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1152 agreed to)]

Chairman, I come from a serious pastoral community and I have seen a reduction of Ksh3,000,000,000 and I just needed a clarification from the Chair to understand. The Temporary Chairman : The Hon. Chair.

[(Hon. David Ochieng)]

Thank you very much Hon. Chair. Hon. Makilap, thank you very much for standing for what your people do. This money is simply for the movement of the Kenya Meat Commission (KMC) from this department to the Department of Defense (DOD) . The Temporary Chairman : Members that is self-explanatory.

[(Hon. David Ochieng)]

[(Vote 1162 as amended agreed to)]

The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng): The amendment Mover.

Thank you very much Hon. Chair. I move that we amend by deleting the figure Ksh 2,606,516,069 in column six, that is, Gross Current Estimates and under Programme 011000 Fisheries Department and Management and substitute therefore the figure Ksh 2,556,516,062 to deleting the figure Ksh6,614,940,000 in column seven, that is, Gross Capital Estimates under Programme 011000 Fisheries Development and Ma…

[(Question of the amendment proposed)]

[(Programme 011000 as amended agreed to)]

[(Vote 1166 as amended agreed to)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. On this State Department, I commend the Budget and Appropriations Committee and the Departmental Committee on Agriculture and Livestock. This amendment is increasing money for fertiliser and bringing more money to sugar reforms. At the same time, it is going to assure the country of food security and bring down the cost of living. This is a very good move. The …

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I also support the increment of Ksh13,742,250,431 because it will increase the fertiliser that farmers need. As you have seen, the reduction of price of fertiliser from Ksh7,500 to Ksh2,500 has reduced the cost of living. It has reduced the cost of unga from Ksh230 to Ksh130. I support the increment. It will also go into mopping-up of maize, so that National Ce…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I have the microphone now. I support the increment in this very vital State Department. However, I want to get an assurance from the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee that part of this sum will support the sugar industry reforms, and more specifically to pay the sugarcane farmers and employees in Nzoia sugar zone. The Temporary Chairman : How is that as…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Committee matters that are under his charge which he is aware of, and he can answer ably without saying he assures you. If he says that, what do you get in return? How do you get assured when he says that? Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I want Hon. Makali to be in peace. The money that you will enhance for the State Department for Crop Development will take care of all farmers across Kenya: maize farmers, coffee cherry farmers, and tea and maize fertiliser. It will also be used for sugar reforms, specifically paying arrears to farmers and enhancing Cane Testing Unit (CTU) , so that we have sucr…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I support this increment for the State Department for Crop Development. I wish and hope that my constituency or county will be the next food basket for this country. I can see the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Agriculture and Livestock looking like I am not realistic. Garissa is the next area that we must start investing in as a country. While I a…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I support what the Members have said. However, three things have not been mentioned. One, there is the re-introduction of the National Food Reserve. We used to have the Strategic Food Reserve, and now we have the National Food Reserve. We have allocated Ksh2 billion to it. We also have the procurement of dryers which we have allocated Ksh2.34 billion. …

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I thank the Departmental Committee on Agriculture and Livestock and the Budget and Appropriation Committee for providing for post-harvest losses by budgeting for dryers and other facilities. The Temporary Chairman : I hope the money will be used for post-harvest indeed.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Programmes 0107000, 0108000, 0109000 and 0120000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1169 agreed to)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, thank you very much. This increase is welcome. The cost of this programme, the Inua Jamii Programm… Many of our old people were not registered but now they are registered. I appreciate. It is welcome. Thank you.

[(Programmes 0908000, 0909000 and 0914000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1185 agreed to)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I support this increment as it will ensure that we have consistent supply of sanitary pads for our girls in school. I support.

[(Programmes 0711000, 0911000, 0912000 and 0913000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1212 agreed to)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. Why is the National Intelligence Service (NIS) getting a lot of money in this kind of increase? We have not been seeing them performing very well in this country. Why are we giving them a lot of money? If the Chairman is here, he can explain to us why we do not have

money in some areas and NIS is being given a lot of money. If you ask me, there is nothing they start and finish. They always leave things hanging. Thank you.

[(Laughter)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I do not speak for Government but I am aware that the NIS has saved this country a lot of problems, especially to do with the Al Shabaab. There is a lot of work they have done behind the scenes. It has enabled this country to experience peace and security. Therefore, I really support this allocation. The Temporary Chairman : I will have to stand you down again, Chairman …

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I tend to agree with the Mheshimiwa from Thika Town Constituency that the Ksh1.5 billion given to the NIS is money that we can re-allocate to sort out Kenyans who are suffering even in our places. The information from the NIS has never been consumed practically to help the intended... The Temporary Chairman : Haya. Hon. Melly.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I want to bring it to the attention of the Member that national intelligence is very important to the stability and the running of this country. The money to be allocated is meant to ensure that the intelligence service is able to gather enough information and make sure that we have the security that we need. The Temporary Chairman : Thank you. Hon. KK.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I would like to persuade my colleagues that the work the NIS does may not be work that they publish or show on the newspapers or news. Actually, they keep this country running by making sure that they avert threats of terror and even matters of corruption. I implore Members that we allocate these resources because this is the heart of the stability of our country. The Tem…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Yes, Hon. Temporary Chairman. I support the increase because the running of any country cannot do without the intelligence service. The Temporary Chairman : I want to put the question. Unless the Member for Kiharu has something to say.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Programme 0804000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1281 agreed to)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, I wish to indicate that I do not support that reduction because we must enable our political parties to grow. They will not grow if we stifle them.

[(Programme 0614000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1311 agreed to)]

in respect of Vote 1332 (State Department for Forestry) be increased by a sum not exceeding Ksh101,707,261.

This increment, which we appreciate, basically goes to the statutory payments of the teachers. As you will be seeing, both housing levy, and so on and so forth... We, however, have a chunk of teachers who have worked for a contract period of one year as noted in their letters. I am telling Hon. Members that those teachers needed more funding to be absorbed on permanent and pensionable terms. Ther…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Thank you. I want to plead with this House to consider the teachers who were temporarily employed in the JSS, so that as we allocate these funds, they can be employed on permanent and pensionable terms. On the same note, for us to motivate the teaching class, teachers who have stagnated in one grade for a long time should be considered among other things. The Temporary Chairman : Thank you. Memb…

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Put the question.

[(Loud consultations)]

Put the Question.

[(Programmes 0509000, 0510000 and 0511000 agreed to)]

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairman. We are reducing Ksh59,550,311 from the Office of the Controller of Budget, which is a sensitive office. What are we reducing? The Temporary Chairman : Chairperson, Budget and Appropriations Committee, what money are you reducing from the Office of the Controller of Budget?

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Temporary Chairman, this is normal for all the departments. That was for the purpose of rationalisation. The National Treasury sent a circular to all MDAs who made cuts where they deemed fit. The Temporary Chairman : Hon. Kimani Kuria, you have one minute.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

We had a deliberation with the Controller of Budget, who agreed to this particular amendment. The Temporary Chairman : Thank you.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Programme 0730000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 2121 agreed to)]

in respect of Vote 1261 (The Judiciary) be reduced by a sum not exceeding Ksh400,000,000. Programme 0610000 -Dispensation of Justice The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): Mover, do you have an amendment? Go ahead.

THAT, the First Schedule be amended in Vote 1261 (The Judiciary) by—

The net effect is zero sum. The Temporary Chairman : It is zero sum.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Question of the amendment proposed)]

[(Programme 0610000 as amended agreed to)]

[(Vote 1261 as amended agreed to)]

Programme 0718000 - Public Financial Management The Temporary Chairman (Hon. David Ochieng’): Hon. Junet Mohamed.

THAT, the First Schedule be amended –

On a point of order, Hon. Chairman. The Temporary Chairman : Yes. What is out of order, Hon. Junet?

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

Hon. Chair, I want to tell Hon. Members that their travelling money and everything else is gone. Do not blame the Clerk. The Temporary Chairman : Thank you.

[(Hon. David Ochieng’)]

[(Programme 0718000 agreed to)]

[(Vote 1071 agreed to)]

Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Chairman. You have done a commendable job. Hon. Temporary Chairman, I beg to move that the Committee of Supply do report to the House its consideration of the Supplementary Estimates 1 for Financial Year 2023/2024 and its approval thereof with amendments.

[(Question proposed)]

[(Question put and agreed to)]

[(The House resumed)]

[[The Temporary Speaker (Hon. Omboko Milemba) in the Chair]]

Order Members. You may take your seats.

Order, Hon. Members! Take your seats. We are back in the House. The Chairperson.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has considered the First Supplementary Estimates for the Financial Year 2023/2024 and approved the same with amendments and, pursuant to the provisions of Article 223 of the Constitution of Kenya, Section 44 of the Public Finance Management Act, 2012 and Standing Order 243, approves the issuance of a sum of Ksh66,201,573,015 from…

Mover.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Report of the Committee of Supply in its consideration of the First Supplementary Estimates for the Financial Year 2023/2024 and, pursuant to the provisions of Article 223 of the Constitution of Kenya, Section 44 of the Public Finance Management Act, 2012 and Standing Order 243, approves the issuance of a sum of Ksh66, 201,573,…

best men and women for this job, in the 13th Parliament. I thank Kenyans for identifying very good and credible leaders. I assure them that Members of Parliament are doing their best to ensure they offer quality service to the people they represent. I also thank the Temporary Chairman, Member for Ugenya, Hon. David Ochieng’, for executing his role very well. He did very well in leading us through…

Hon. Kimani.

Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me this chance. I also thank my younger brother, Hon. Ndindi Nyoro, Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, the Vice-Chairperson, Hon. Mary Emaase who is here, and all the Members of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, with the notable presence of Hon. Samuel Atandi and many others who have sat through this Sitting. Allow me to al…

[(Applause)]

Order, Hon. Member for Dagoretti South.

Hon. Temporary Speaker, it is good that you have protected me from the Member for Dagoretti South as I beg to second. This afternoon, the Member for Kirinyaga, Hon. Njeri, said that there are decorated secondary schools that purport to be universities. I have not named any university. This afternoon, Hon. Njeri described one public university as a decorated secondary school.

[(Several Members spoke off the record)]

[(Laughter)]

Order, Hon. Members.

Thank you, Members. The mood is that we put the Question. Before I put the Question, let me thank the Members for sitting late. I thank Hon. Ochieng’ for taking us through that very long Committee of Suppy.

[(Applause)]